Re: [Last-Call] Last Call: BCP 83 PR-Action Against Dan Harkins

Keith Moore <> Wed, 26 October 2022 22:39 UTC

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Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2022 18:39:23 -0400
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To: Stephen Farrell <>,
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From: Keith Moore <>
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Subject: Re: [Last-Call] Last Call: BCP 83 PR-Action Against Dan Harkins
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On 10/26/22 18:15, Stephen Farrell wrote:

>> So while I understand and accept the argument that we shouldn't use 
>> satire or sarcasm in IETF, I think it will take time for English 
>> speakers who are accustomed to that convention, to learn to not 
>> respond to such arguments in the conventional way.
> IMO the above is not correct. A tiny tiny proportion of
> IETF emails I've read (and I've read a lot) contain any
> satire or sarcasm. Almost everyone has learned to not do
> that already, years ago, without having to be told or get
> training, perhaps largely because it's utterly obvious.
Maybe we don't often have the need to use that convention in IETF very 
often, or at least, haven't needed it much until the past few years.

And for what it's worth, I will quite sincerely say that "don't use 
satire"  hasn't been obvious to me.   What has been obvious is that many 
people in IETF believe that they have the right to impose rules on 
others' speech without those rules being explicit.  This is a 
disturbing, and discriminatory, trend that I believe is doing tremendous 
harm to IETF's ability to function.   IMO that trend is far worse than 
people sometimes using less-than-ideal language.

> It's possible to disagree with or not be satisfied by
> the proposed PR-action but better to not bring in any
> counterfactual propositions while doing so. 

I don't think it's counterfactual, and I believe it's at least 
tangentially relevant.