Re: [Last-Call] Last Call: BCP 83 PR-Action Against Dan Harkins

Rob Sayre <> Sun, 02 October 2022 00:04 UTC

Return-Path: <>
Received: from localhost (localhost []) by (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66C29C14CF15 for <>; Sat, 1 Oct 2022 17:04:12 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -7.105
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.105 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key)
Received: from ([]) by localhost ( []) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G3xCC-UkcU5z for <>; Sat, 1 Oct 2022 17:04:08 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ( [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::531]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 82E52C14CF03 for <>; Sat, 1 Oct 2022 17:04:08 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by with SMTP id l22so8831241edj.5 for <>; Sat, 01 Oct 2022 17:04:08 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date; bh=73xfRwTbHMzpP1diPZhfpIhcE5ZD0t6zyYn/xuxQzb8=; b=i+2PTDV1LOSk2Kv3oNWwSvGq57TlocJQMyPrJx6jjRH9p1EHbgkzEpJYDFPAeTqVBC PGKlBtNyld8c4I9tDG+5Z/wwgz6Qfmqr+lCattszNXiRIvkG3RRd4X51iS/u7/UPz4LX D5HDaKXt3ZhK9Vu5RvaslGqQe3pRDwEiYVFIVjX2i9+Io2+iZvMKawfOg4vJCesG5OuF eMpq6cLvh+GhFDLpNqKKcPjnhMdc9dbd/2MNlEmg1i5TxyufMmQi2G1cmHpuneE4ZPhR O2bYPii3N143SQ+Ux6irZpjXFp+DG7r6goEAyb+dTihiQtHzmuLQEsBlXc7joFJHDLFk D5qg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date; bh=73xfRwTbHMzpP1diPZhfpIhcE5ZD0t6zyYn/xuxQzb8=; b=JeHennOu2sMuuwMbpSBbhG265FLRa3NJr1/Jj0tLW6mooqbA4SY2ypAGusbTrnbZGh r7bCUmsg0orv1A4nPfVImBkOwQNVOWoo8HPONGmcCU97T52/78kYoYI76x+/Yhrvf6GQ RiAxFhkqV74ZwArbBRU/BxGG6AMBZDuxmFh0UlsXZIUDasStNFpTnsydryeK8l5DqI/A cv73kkM0YPu09l+aWGLdyyPIJPoql6zLSGhQuCr5VAGIJHsEUbJhBJPAqXIblNbTAr0R OI6+sZGJ5Pdbv7Psb8TzQidSmX9B9GTE7IU9oDcP7vdzLa0OaUhqzpLTB8Rc/JfVhV1i BBwQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf2CCpWmYSOuHsQNyUsJcXtqPAtEQrRcqxpdJ/qVGlNZLlcYSnCJ FleoB9lO1LJ8zO8Mn60VfvYscZUe9t3mj267X0Y=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM6P+g8JqEwixmG5MPoNGhE2dNioUxEZC9/T85kszZUb9pOmnXxRNHsGSuOpoLImTnbxCnkWuc8Tz2DKJDKJxFQ=
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:298d:b0:451:5fc5:d423 with SMTP id eq13-20020a056402298d00b004515fc5d423mr12954237edb.102.1664669046676; Sat, 01 Oct 2022 17:04:06 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <>
In-Reply-To: <>
From: Rob Sayre <>
Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2022 17:03:55 -0700
Message-ID: <>
To: Timothy Mcsweeney <>
Cc: David Schinazi <>, "" <>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000032223805ea01f79e"
Archived-At: <>
Subject: Re: [Last-Call] Last Call: BCP 83 PR-Action Against Dan Harkins
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.39
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF Last Calls <>
List-Unsubscribe: <>, <>
List-Archive: <>
List-Post: <>
List-Help: <>
List-Subscribe: <>, <>
X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2022 00:04:12 -0000


I'm cool with impolite debate when there is a technical issue at hand
(others are not, and I see their point).

But most of this stuff seems to be sent regarding procedural issues. I
think the IETF should tighten the charters and policies of all
non-technical mailing lists.


P.S. - at Mozilla, we used to keep a bulletin board of the various strange
letters we received in the mail

On Sat, Oct 1, 2022 at 4:27 PM Timothy Mcsweeney <> wrote:

> OK Dave let's dig deeper, The good news is that you didn't disagree with
> me when I said Dan's emails were not racist.  The rest inline.
> > On 10/01/2022 3:32 PM EDT David Schinazi <>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi Tim,
> >
> > I think you've inadvertently helped clarify what a "problematic email"
> is.
> > Let's take your email that I'm replying to as an example. The point
> > you're trying to make (please correct me if I'm misunderstanding) is
> > that you disagree about the posting rights action regarding Dan Harkins.
> Yes that's correct, notably on whether Dan Harkins has engaged in postings
> that are "unprofessional commentary, regardless of the general subject" in
> a manner disruptive enough to warrant this action.
> > But let's look at how you're making that point. You say:
> > <<Anyone who is actually upset about the "problematic emails" is either
> > to weak for a leadership position or has an underlying agenda.>>
> > I was upset by Dan's emails, so now you're accusing me of either being
> > weak, or being dishonest.
> Whoa whoa Dave, I didn't say you were dishonest!  Thats a bit of a bait
> and switch with my words sir.  But since you bring it up and you said Dan's
> emails upset you, I'm sure you spoke up about it.  Lets check over on the
> terminology list, nope no Dave there[1].  Lets check on every one of those
> problem email threads, I'm sure you said something there....nope, no Dave
> there either.  Maybe they didn't really bother you.  Maybe you were right
> to use the word dishonest, idk.
> > Why do you feel the need to belittle me here?
> I guess subconsciously I was trying to fit in, I've been picking it up
> here and there.  But I get so confused...Carsten calls me stupid and gets a
> thumbs up;  Masataka Ohta calls some one stupid and gets banned.  I'm just
> not sure who to belittle these days.
> > Then let's about this drink you're having at the pub. The way you repeat
> it
> > seems to indicate that you already know that this way of naming the
> > drink is offensive,
> Yeah, the guy next to me ordered a White Russian and I just about knocked
> him out I was so furious!!  Doesn't that guy know all Russians aren't
> white!  How dare he not know the litteral roots of the drink he ordered!
> I'm going to tell the manager how upset I am and see if I can get him
> kicked out.  But first I'm going to get all my friends together so we can
> all tell the manager, that way it will look like a huge issue and they will
> have to do something!
> > Some people on this list might
> > be of Irish descent, and might find it upsetting that you belittle a
> part of
> > their history where some of their family members might have lost their
> > lives.
> Not sure if you caught my last name but....whatever.  If I had family
> members that were burned to death I wouldn't call you inconsiderate for
> having a campfire.
> > So by this rhetoric flourish of yours, you're intentionally making people
> > feel bad by bringing bad hard memories.
> That was a poetic.  Eliot!  Where's Eliot?  There is a poet over here!
> If calling you a poet stirs up any hard memories, well, idk, I guess
> that's poetic justice.
> > There's no way that repeating this
> > drink name six times helps make your point that Dan Harkins should be
> > allowed to post on a mailing list.
> No no, that's not true.  The repitition is to help you remember.
>  Remember how ridiculous this whole thing is.
> > So yes, your email is problematic.
> There you go again with the labels.  Did you know that by labeling
> something you make it exclusive?  And being exclusive is not very
> inclusive.
> > In the future, please attempt to make you points without intentional
> being rude,
> > disrespectful, or belittling. You'll find that people will listen to you
> > more.
> How did I do this time?
> [1]
> --
> last-call mailing list