Re: [Last-Call] Change of position: Last Call: BCP 83 PR-Action Against Dan Harkins

Abdussalam Baryun <abdussalambaryun@gmail.com> Thu, 27 October 2022 22:10 UTC

Return-Path: <abdussalambaryun@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: last-call@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: last-call@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99B54C1524B6; Thu, 27 Oct 2022 15:10:24 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.104
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.104 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ynTyBzHT8f_m; Thu, 27 Oct 2022 15:10:20 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-wm1-x32d.google.com (mail-wm1-x32d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32d]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B2897C14F72C; Thu, 27 Oct 2022 15:10:20 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-wm1-x32d.google.com with SMTP id n14so1919039wmq.3; Thu, 27 Oct 2022 15:10:20 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=zmOC8nTDJ16WHn69FZqBmYPkK1hpmXtMOiyn2AroURo=; b=j5hTeQNu102Q8rUme6U5ZOLxxyWzGvjiOazt2Kc6Jz1sPWxKFfbC5IfSdI1O4vmraZ NCsUPAjUM+GECvtG7itOy/KW+34pcdHTruRk0J+YO0Psd9M8HZHObeWI+wOM94aGkUcx ZMyEBEqQGNdKoFBYjFnWWd+b8q6k6LCUK3UOHoNAEDCWz2WmoGbBJEvKUU4Mzzvjokhc 84Eb7T5NVkwXlS74tzZ++xqi2VwL24Vr9lzokIsa48VylEaKbJ6rMHudclAi+VNVPWTQ O4BUWsmgLOIyY5VNUzrzOZELeH4GVi+kt0XRjbZ1mhfMxbeseEZ0riBL1USJpkyO5e/I Uxww==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=zmOC8nTDJ16WHn69FZqBmYPkK1hpmXtMOiyn2AroURo=; b=62nmFf5CWPr1+XnqxCQtNT2FdcrgfLcZY9FId1ptgnyhpONFmZAN+GOjfI03Ko5HhM QeWoRk/Dgl1IT05jQgQvR89g6It6IA2cKVINHHp0Ai5kJGhfdawiIAeWXMCTY6v3vs/R bC8nlCMPKfoL/geYDZPLQvND9MCMNQQjOjvEpy0t7r5XP8UPmorQkM/WjWyrBTCwR8zz CpKp4Fb1r5pqQU0NYBmyzNUUtPYGyTOs4bbGg+hhbQi2T5VU5UKfQtRCZyoii+njWCb+ TBYVXhrqN8kUd2LV7iRN29z2+DBOaKF0rkLkHKfVhSVClfEH96rnkK9vetDH7HNGcCB3 zM5w==
X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf0styXQZ49JKtKN6rULO6q5q3wIoZTWDuC387C2E5HYlgHrcZQ0 Zc0gl/2rR4xADz+Ef/gJ79oHhYFH/xytX/sS8g9vB6wXY7EC5w==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM4IexZKfB/Zf4y4/IND4KOMS2hpnetgiqVIOF18ZIu8pNzax+xeeWZ63ihWo9gFvadFVkzzAuGfXAcy54ZDYiY=
X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:35cf:b0:3c6:e957:b403 with SMTP id r15-20020a05600c35cf00b003c6e957b403mr7734846wmq.162.1666908617512; Thu, 27 Oct 2022 15:10:17 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <CFE25E25-D131-468E-9923-80350D6216F3@ietf.org> <d5f91bf1-4407-8ec5-50ab-a8bdb7327c0f@gmail.com> <ef5c4886-5438-0537-611f-19b7ac54daa4@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <ef5c4886-5438-0537-611f-19b7ac54daa4@gmail.com>
From: Abdussalam Baryun <abdussalambaryun@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2022 00:13:46 +0200
Message-ID: <CADnDZ8_ZJKGcKo2RNt2W_uKYzWyqgT+r2pPt=k8gdZx3pXLghQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: last-call@ietf.org
Cc: IETF Chair <chair@ietf.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000051b0005ec0b687e"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/last-call/rFksXrzzaJLu3mNy0QDVwlHw5ZI>
Subject: Re: [Last-Call] Change of position: Last Call: BCP 83 PR-Action Against Dan Harkins
X-BeenThere: last-call@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.39
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF Last Calls <last-call.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/last-call>, <mailto:last-call-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/last-call/>
List-Post: <mailto:last-call@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:last-call-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/last-call>, <mailto:last-call-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2022 22:10:24 -0000

On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 6:26 AM Brian E Carpenter <
brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'd like to change my position on this.


This ability to *change position* is very good for IETFers, which I think
the message from IESG has pointed out that the individual has not changed
the position and has continued same. Do you mean that it is ok that any
individual can continue not changing position within discussions and
continues unhelpful communication.

The action may help some participants to change positions to make IETF more
communicative.


> In a recent message, Dan acknowledges that using sarcasm or satire is
> problematic:
>
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/last-call/-8qnygF1ywCc3nQAWg0jGCEtLdo/
> To my mind, given that Dan has been a significant technical contributor
> over many years, that is really all the community can ask for. I don't
> think the IETF would gain anything at this point by applying a PR Action,
> and would possibly lose future significant technical contributions.
>
>
The IETF Chair message was clear below of no positive change. I think it is
important within any discussion-thread that if got into conflict, then we
need to follow the WG chair or IETF Chair, so we get in progress (change
position), but not changing positions cannot be a good contribution.


> > On 30-Sep-22 05:15, IETF Chair wrote:
> >> Following community feedback after various incidents, as documented
> below, the
> >> IESG has initiated a posting rights (PR) action that would restrict the
> posting
> >> rights of Dan Harkins, as per the procedures found in BCP 83 (RFC 3683).
> >> Specifically, his posting privileges to these lists would be suspended:
> >>
> >> * admin-discuss
> >> * gendispatch
> >> * ietf
> >> * terminology
> >>
> >> In the IESG's opinion, this individual has a history of sending emails
> that are
> >> inconsistent with the IETF Guidelines for Conduct (RFC 7154) and thereby
> >> "disrupt the consensus-driven process" (RFC 3683). Among these are
> contributions
> >> that:
> >>
> >> * Express racism in the form of denying, belittling, and ridiculing
> anti-racist
> >>     sentiment and efforts
> >>
> >> * Are rude and abusive, and often amount to insulting ridicule
> >>
> >> (Links to examples of such emails sent to the lists above during the
> last two
> >> years are provided at the end of this email.)
> >>
> >> Multiple attempts have been made to enter into a private discussion
> with this
> >> individual, both by IESG and community members, to communicate disquiet
> with his
> >> conduct on the lists. These attempts to restore respectful and
> courteous conduct
> >> on the lists have been rebuffed with communication that can be
> considered both
> >> antagonistic and hostile, and the pattern of behavior observed has
> continued.
>

Was there any change in position when IESG has communicated with the
individual? What was the reasons of not changing such behavior.

Regards
AB



> >>
> >> The IESG also notes that the following actions have already been taken
> in
> >> response to the individual's actions:
> >>
> >> * Two I-Ds were removed from the public archive due to their offensive
> nature:
> >>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-les-white-intersectional-dots
> >>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-les-white-tls-preferred-pronouns
> >>     (following these links displays the tombstone notice explaining
> their removal)
> >>
> >> * His posting rights were restricted on the admin-discuss mailing list:
> >>
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/admin-discuss/ZANH2VPN-U8VMvvOWLb5l03FdCs/
> >>
> >> * A final public warning was issued on the gendispatch mailing list:
> >>
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/68a4amMa1aiaRUPzPGgXdiY9gHg/
> >>
> >> None of the attempts to discuss his participation style or warn the
> individual
> >> have led to any improvements. The IESG therefore believes that a PR
> action is
> >> the correct response to his continued problematic behavior across a
> number of
> >> different lists.
> >>
> >> The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits
> final
> >> comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the
> >> last-call@ietf.org mailing lists by 27 October 2022. Exceptionally,
> comments may
> >> be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. If sending private feedback to the
> IESG,
> >> please indicate if you would be open to having your comments anonymized
> and
> >> shared in a summary.
> >>
> >> Please note: Comments should be limited to the criteria described in
> BCP 83,
> >> notably on whether the individual in question has engaged in postings
> that are
> >> "unprofessional commentary, regardless of the general subject" in a
> manner
> >> disruptive enough to warrant this action.
> >>
> >> Lars Eggert
> >> IETF Chair, on behalf of the IESG
> >> –-
> >>
> >> Examples of problematic emails during the last two years include:
> >>
> >> *
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/zdq3F0PV40Cyw5ooj0orOWaYyUw/
> >> *
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/i-d7HlWgrkmrVlC7JZQSXDwIJCQ/
> >> *
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/YhPI9zZ_3xfidt5V-ORRnET36yY/
> >> *
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/B33zk8VfOYt4b4Cj-kIHXG3AXdg/
> >> *
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/d3iDS4WNkCJA3aMFnX2HjP4tsps/
> >> *
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/-On8AHrdnnCMlJOOyb1M1nlYMpk/
> >> *
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/terminology/n6UMvDuYLKmmvpP1ajICFvf634M/
> >> *
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/terminology/QCdjDbokmlARcwVqQ1TV3Rlz7eQ/
> >> *
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/terminology/X6OF0MBKAzyLhYaAfAxS6srXRNw/
> >> *
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/terminology/idJhG1MsLmKHyRlaAafcW2JF6Z8/
> >> *
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipsec/LoGSVatZ4EsYRq4K52rmvRZTndk/
> >> *
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/pl2lVqhtF4Z-0YuTjhCOmdyi1qE/
> >> *
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/DFgnF_j8py_eMBGI1IUFdMahTKw/
> >> *
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/terminology/T3oCpY3BbTNLXWAWsCnFvahRLUQ/
> >> *
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/admin-discuss/xLuz4WTCm5ibIiMVN5ID8OWsCI0/
> >>
> --
> last-call mailing list
> last-call@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/last-call
>