Re: [Last-Call] Last Call: BCP 83 PR-Action Against Dan Harkins

Ted Lemon <> Thu, 06 October 2022 16:25 UTC

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From: Ted Lemon <>
Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2022 12:24:57 -0400
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To: "Bless, Roland (TM)" <>
Cc: Kjetil Torgrim Homme <>,
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Subject: Re: [Last-Call] Last Call: BCP 83 PR-Action Against Dan Harkins
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It is perhaps worth noting that "shouting down" is precisely what would
motivate a PR-action. That's not the behavior we want in the IETF. So
anyone using whatever power they have to "shout down" any other IETF
participant is prima facie subject to a PR action. That's the whole /point/
of PR actions. "Does not suffer fools gladly" is another attitude that I
would think would tend to produce behavior that would be subject to a PR
action. Working together to reach consensus requires patience, not "not
suffering fools gladly." Because everybody sounds like a fool when they
disagree with you, until you soften a bit and try to hear whatever
criticism or input they have offered. That's just our inherent cognitive
bias: "whatever seems right to me is right until strong evidence is seen
that contradicts it." Learning to allow that evidence in is a skill, and
one that we should all try to cultivate.

On Thu, Oct 6, 2022 at 12:18 PM Bless, Roland (TM) <>

> Hi Kjetil,
> On 06.10.22 at 17:17 Kjetil Torgrim Homme wrote:
> > On Thu, 2022-10-06 at 16:51 +0200, Bless, Roland (TM) wrote:
> >> First of all, expressing racism is not the same thing as expressing an
> >> "unpopular opinion". Racism is simply not tolerable and I see that the
> >> leadership has an obligation to act upon that, therefore it is not about
> >> suppressing opinions that IETF leadership does not like.
> >
> > Agreed.
> >
> >> Second, even if
> >> we leave racism aside, it is clear from Dan's postings that he is
> >> discriminating against people of groups that the IETF should not
> >> exclude (and human dignity is non-negotiable).
> >
> > Can you give me any examples of this?  So far no one has been able to
> > provide links to messages where Dan has expressed racist or
> > discriminatory views, so I would be very interested to see.
> Really?
> For example, here:
> He is ridiculing and humiliating groups by stating that "Where identity
> groups can compound their power with the intersection of their venn
> diagram of group identity. A trans black activist would have more
> "authenticity", more ability to shout down Dave Chappelle than a white
> trans activist and both of them would have more power than some cis
> white male trying to shout down Dave Chappelle."..."The goal is to be in
> as many identity groups as possible. They highlight their group identity
> intersection because it _increases_ their place on the hierarchy!"
> Embracing diversity and inclusion of group members is obviously about
> participation and respect and not about increasing their power over
> others and people do not/cannot change their identities or orientations
> in order to to that.
> >> His ridiculing and
> >> belittling postings show a clear lack of respect for individuals of
> >> these groups and it is unprofessional if the community repeatedly
> >> requested to stop that behavior, but he nevertheless still continues.
> >
> > It seems to me Dan Harkins does not always suffer fools lightly (I hope
> > that is the correct idiom), but he doesn't discriminate against
> > "individuals of groups", but against "individuals".
> Sorry, I do not understand what you are trying to say.
> Regards,
>   Roland
> --
> last-call mailing list