Re: [Last-Call] Last Call: BCP 83 PR-Action Against Dan Harkins

Valery Smyslov <smyslov.ietf@gmail.com> Thu, 27 October 2022 05:55 UTC

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From: Valery Smyslov <smyslov.ietf@gmail.com>
To: 'Brian E Carpenter' <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, last-call@ietf.org
References: <CFE25E25-D131-468E-9923-80350D6216F3@ietf.org> <0d5d01d8e90c$64070290$2c1507b0$@gmail.com> <a5406bce-40b5-b621-64fe-d4ab68ef960c@gmail.com>
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Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2022 08:55:47 +0300
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Subject: Re: [Last-Call] Last Call: BCP 83 PR-Action Against Dan Harkins
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Hi Brian,

> Valery,
> 
> I'm not commenting further on the PR action as such. We are a diverse
> group of people and many here are not native speakers of the language. I
> suggest that using sarcasm or satire in this group is an ineffective and
> confusing method. If half the audience takes the sarcasm or the satire
> seriously, the argument will cancel itself out.

Just to clarify my point. I didn'n say that using sarcasm (satire, irony, etc.)
in IETF is good (or bad). I think it very much depends on the situation, the topic, 
the way it is used, etc. and I agree that it's better to avoid this form in case of any doubt. 

My point was that just using sarcasm or satire should not be a foundation 
for the proposed action, since it is just a form (perhaps not the best one).

Regards,
Valery.

> Regards
>     Brian Carpenter
> 
> On 26-Oct-22 20:27, Valery Smyslov wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I do not support this PR action.
> >
> > I read the provided messages and I am not convinced that they justify the
> accusation of expressing racism.
> > And while I admit that many of these messages are harsh and sarcastic
> and sometimes are on the verge of acceptable
> > (definitely this verge is subjective), it seems to me that the sarcastic form
> of these messages was used by the author
> > to make his arguments more expressive. The arguments themselves often
> look worth to consider.
> >
> > "Not only is it extremely cruel to persecute in this brief life those who do
> not think the way we do,
> > but I do not know if it might be too presumptuous to declare their eternal
> damnation."
> >
> > Voltaire, A Treatise on Toleration (1763), translated by Richard Hooker
> >
> > https://brians.wsu.edu/2016/11/04/voltaire-a-treatise-on-toleration-
> 1763/ (excerpt)
> > or https://earlymoderntexts.com/assets/pdfs/voltaire1763.pdf (full text)
> >
> > Regards,
> > Valery Smyslov.
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: last-call [mailto:last-call-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of IETF
> Chair
> >> Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2022 7:16 PM
> >> To: last-call@ietf.org
> >> Subject: [Last-Call] Last Call: BCP 83 PR-Action Against Dan Harkins
> >>
> >> Following community feedback after various incidents, as documented
> below, the
> >> IESG has initiated a posting rights (PR) action that would restrict the
> posting
> >> rights of Dan Harkins, as per the procedures found in BCP 83 (RFC 3683).
> >> Specifically, his posting privileges to these lists would be suspended:
> >>
> >> * admin-discuss
> >> * gendispatch
> >> * ietf
> >> * terminology
> >>
> >> In the IESG's opinion, this individual has a history of sending emails that
> are
> >> inconsistent with the IETF Guidelines for Conduct (RFC 7154) and thereby
> >> "disrupt the consensus-driven process" (RFC 3683). Among these are
> contributions
> >> that:
> >>
> >> * Express racism in the form of denying, belittling, and ridiculing anti-
> racist
> >>    sentiment and efforts
> >>
> >> * Are rude and abusive, and often amount to insulting ridicule
> >>
> >> (Links to examples of such emails sent to the lists above during the last
> two
> >> years are provided at the end of this email.)
> >>
> >> Multiple attempts have been made to enter into a private discussion
> with this
> >> individual, both by IESG and community members, to communicate
> disquiet with his
> >> conduct on the lists. These attempts to restore respectful and courteous
> conduct
> >> on the lists have been rebuffed with communication that can be
> considered both
> >> antagonistic and hostile, and the pattern of behavior observed has
> continued.
> >>
> >> The IESG also notes that the following actions have already been taken in
> >> response to the individual's actions:
> >>
> >> * Two I-Ds were removed from the public archive due to their offensive
> nature:
> >>    https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-les-white-intersectional-
> dots
> >>    https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-les-white-tls-preferred-
> pronouns
> >>    (following these links displays the tombstone notice explaining their
> removal)
> >>
> >> * His posting rights were restricted on the admin-discuss mailing list:
> >>    https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/admin-discuss/ZANH2VPN-
> U8VMvvOWLb5l03FdCs/
> >>
> >> * A final public warning was issued on the gendispatch mailing list:
> >>
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/68a4amMa1aiaRUPzPGg
> XdiY9gHg/
> >>
> >> None of the attempts to discuss his participation style or warn the
> individual
> >> have led to any improvements. The IESG therefore believes that a PR
> action is
> >> the correct response to his continued problematic behavior across a
> number of
> >> different lists.
> >>
> >> The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits
> final
> >> comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the
> >> last-call@ietf.org mailing lists by 27 October 2022. Exceptionally,
> comments may
> >> be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. If sending private feedback to the IESG,
> >> please indicate if you would be open to having your comments
> anonymized and
> >> shared in a summary.
> >>
> >> Please note: Comments should be limited to the criteria described in BCP
> 83,
> >> notably on whether the individual in question has engaged in postings
> that are
> >> "unprofessional commentary, regardless of the general subject" in a
> manner
> >> disruptive enough to warrant this action.
> >>
> >> Lars Eggert
> >> IETF Chair, on behalf of the IESG
> >> –-
> >>
> >> Examples of problematic emails during the last two years include:
> >>
> >> *
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/zdq3F0PV40Cyw5ooj0or
> OWaYyUw/
> >> * https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/i-
> d7HlWgrkmrVlC7JZQSXDwIJCQ/
> >> * https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/YhPI9zZ_3xfidt5V-
> ORRnET36yY/
> >> * https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/B33zk8VfOYt4b4Cj-
> kIHXG3AXdg/
> >> *
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/d3iDS4WNkCJA3aMFnX
> 2HjP4tsps/
> >> * https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/-
> On8AHrdnnCMlJOOyb1M1nlYMpk/
> >> *
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/terminology/n6UMvDuYLKmmvpP1aj
> ICFvf634M/
> >> *
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/terminology/QCdjDbokmlARcwVqQ1
> TV3Rlz7eQ/
> >> *
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/terminology/X6OF0MBKAzyLhYaAfAx
> S6srXRNw/
> >> *
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/terminology/idJhG1MsLmKHyRlaAafc
> W2JF6Z8/
> >> *
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipsec/LoGSVatZ4EsYRq4K52rmvRZTn
> dk/
> >> * https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/pl2lVqhtF4Z-
> 0YuTjhCOmdyi1qE/
> >> *
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/DFgnF_j8py_eMBGI1IUFdMahTK
> w/
> >> *
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/terminology/T3oCpY3BbTNLXWAWsC
> nFvahRLUQ/
> >> * https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/admin-
> discuss/xLuz4WTCm5ibIiMVN5ID8OWsCI0/
> >>
> >> --
> >> last-call mailing list
> >> last-call@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/last-call
> >