Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size
"Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com> Sun, 03 November 2013 23:10 UTC
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Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2013 18:10:08 -0500
From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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To: Luigi Iannone <ggx@gigix.net>, Dino Farinacci <farinacci@gmail.com>
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Cc: LISP mailing list list <lisp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size
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I believe (although I do not know for certain) that if we increase the length as suggested we will have a much easier time getting a block to experiment with. Yours, Joel On 11/3/13 5:30 PM, Luigi Iannone wrote: > Hi, > > I agree with Dino, > > if the issue is just the size let’s reduce it and do some experiments. > > On the other hand, I do not understand we people here are trying to reach a binary conclusion like “EID Block is important and useful” or “EID Block is useless” even before doing any experimentation. > > IMHO this is not the most logical order. We should first experiment, then we will have to know-how to make a decision. > > Exactly because there are different and opposite opinions let’s the technology itself, through experimentation, make the decision. > > Luigi > > > On 2 Nov. 2013, at 11:09 , Dino Farinacci <farinacci@gmail.com> wrote: > >> So it appears that: >> >> (1) People are all for experimenting. >> (2) People may be all for allocating a block if it is not too large. >> >> So would it be easier to swallow if we just request a /32 or smaller block. >> >> Are we just arguing over size? >> >> If the experiment proves we need to do something in production, then we go get larger blocks as Joel indicates. And if the experiment is complete and say we don't need a well-known block, we return the /32. >> >> Dino >> >> On Nov 2, 2013, at 10:44 AM, Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote: >> >>> On the source side, the ITR had better know what EIDs it is working on behalf of (otherwise, it is a source for spoofed source address). So none of those cases seem to be affected by the allocation or non-allocation of a block. >>> >>> If we are going to do anything based on a block, we better make sure it can handle more than one block. Which means that at most we need a block for the duration of the test period. We do not need a block for the hoped for full success of LISP. If we really succeed, we can get an additional bigger block. >>> >>> Yours, >>> Joel >>> >>> On 11/1/13 10:33 AM, Dino Farinacci wrote: >>>>> I understand the importance of experimenting. But I am having >>>>> trouble getting my head around the possible value we want to >>>>> explore. Color me naive and stubborn, but individually so. >>>>> >>>>> Thinking about the ITR code path, if there is no block: >>>> >>>> Many are thinking in this context. It is one but there are other >>>> things WE COULD DO if we new a prefix was an EID. See below for some >>>> rough examples. And please don't ask for detail, because this is >>>> initial thinking. >>>> >>>>> Receive packet check cache for destination failing cache match, >>>>> query for destination. >>>> >>>> And there could be a failed match if the destination address was not >>>> an EID. Meaning this packet is coming to an ITR destined for a >>>> non-LISP site (regardless if the source address is an EID or not). So >>>> the ITR would have to query the mapping database. >>>> >>>> So let's break this down. If the source was an EID, one could say, >>>> "okay since I'm doing the new stuff the delay for a lookup to a >>>> non-LISP destination is the price I pay for getting multihoming for >>>> packets that come back to me". If the source was not an EID, then the >>>> old user that expects to go to a non-LISP site expects the packet >>>> loss or optimal routing path to continue. And if it does not, then >>>> the new service hurt existing users. >>>> >>>> Please note, this is when a site is bifurcated being a site that has >>>> some partial EID allocations and partial hosts that have not changed. >>>> And that either could send to EID or non-EID destinations. >>>> >>>> Yes, you could have a default PETR configured in the ITR so there is >>>> 0 packet loss, but then you may get a suboptimal path. And packets >>>> from a non-EID source to a non-EID destination could be inadvertently >>>> encapsulated to the PETR. Then the PETR would decap and deliver the >>>> packet based on a BGP path. >>>> >>>> I for one, would like to solve this problem. And I do not know if >>>> just a well-known, hard-coded, EID-block will do it. >>>> >>>>> And the ITR code path if there is a block: Receive packet check >>>>> cache for destiantion failing cache match, check for destination in >>>>> EID block If in EID block, query If not in EID block, query >>>> >>>> You are correct, but this box could be configured in way where the >>>> logic could change: >>>> >>>> Receive packet If EID-block strict configured If destination in >>>> EID-block, send query Else forward natively Else <do what Joel said >>>> above with no EID-block check> Endif >>>> >>>>> Now, if everything is in the EID block, I understand that the last >>>>> step above becomes "just send". But that appears to be a >>>>> counter-factual assumption. >>>>> >>>>> Yours, Joel >>>> >>>> Having an EID block could help us in these scenarios as well: >>>> >>>> (1) The block or any more specifics should not have a native-forward >>>> action in a Map-Reply returned by the mapping system. (2) The block >>>> or any more specifics should not be injected into BGP without a >>>> special community indicating that only PITRs should be advertising >>>> it. (3) If a destination that a NAT box receives has a source in this >>>> block, that translation should not be done (because it is not >>>> needed). (4) If the source is in this block we know we cannot build >>>> RPF trees in the core when the source sends multicast packets. (5) >>>> Maybe a special EID-block should indicate that this source host can >>>> only talk IPv6 and that stretched layer-2 subnets are prohibited. So >>>> if you hit a box that does VXLAN and LISP, that layer 3 LISP is used >>>> and we don't move MAC frames across the underly and we certainly do >>>> not forward ARP packet, broadcast frames, and link-local multicast. >>>> >>>> Now all these things can be put in the mapping database, and give us >>>> the same answers but if we could keep load off the mapping database, >>>> this would be a good thing, a scalability feature. >>>> >>>> Dino >>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 10/31/13 7:19 PM, Dino Farinacci wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Actually, that use case is only helped by the EID block if you >>>>>>> can be sure that ALL the destination EIDs it will see will come >>>>>>> from the block. >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't believe so. It could just an efficiency play for one >>>>>> versus the other. >>>>>> >>>>>>> Which seems to be impossible to ensure in the general case. >>>>>>> And easy to achieve without an allocated block in many of the >>>>>>> special cases. >>>>>> >>>>>> Well the EID could mean it is behind a NAT and that ITRs should >>>>>> encapsulate to an RTR. Maybe one that is used by a default >>>>>> map-cache entry or a distinguished key on the mapping database. >>>>>> >>>>>> See there are sorts of things we could try. Again, "try" here >>>>>> means experimentation. >>>>>> >>>>>> Look how the pilot network was easier to debug since we had >>>>>> 153.16.0.0/16 generically donated by Andrew Partan and how cisco >>>>>> has been renting 2610:d0::/32. >>>>>> >>>>>> Dino >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ lisp mailing list >>>>> lisp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp >>>> >>>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> lisp mailing list >> lisp@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp > >
- [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Luigi Iannone
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Noel Chiappa
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Geoff Huston
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Sander Steffann
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Dino Farinacci
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Rene Bartsch
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Noel Chiappa
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Noel Chiappa
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Sander Steffann
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Rene Bartsch
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Noel Chiappa
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Dino Farinacci
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Dino Farinacci
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Rene Bartsch
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Sander Steffann
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Rene Bartsch
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Noel Chiappa
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Sander Steffann
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Noel Chiappa
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Roger Jørgensen
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Darrel Lewis (darlewis)
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Noel Chiappa
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size George Michaelson
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Geoff Huston
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Noel Chiappa
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Noel Chiappa
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Dino Farinacci
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Dino Farinacci
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Dino Farinacci
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Rene Bartsch
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Sander Steffann
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Rene Bartsch
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Dino Farinacci
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Dino Farinacci
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Roger Jørgensen
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Dino Farinacci
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Luigi Iannone
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Luigi Iannone
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Sander Steffann
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Luigi Iannone
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Luigi Iannone
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Luigi Iannone
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Luigi Iannone
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Luigi Iannone
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Dino Farinacci
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Dino Farinacci
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Geoff Huston
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Luigi Iannone
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Dino Farinacci
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Darrel Lewis (darlewis)
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Sander Steffann
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Paul Vinciguerra
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Darrel Lewis (darlewis)
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Darrel Lewis (darlewis)
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Paul Vinciguerra
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Geoff Huston
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Darrel Lewis (darlewis)
- Re: [lisp] LISP EID Block Size Rene Bartsch