Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next steps
Michael Welzl <michawe@ifi.uio.no> Wed, 31 July 2019 22:18 UTC
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From: Michael Welzl <michawe@ifi.uio.no>
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Cc: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, Spencer Dawkins <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>, Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>, Mirja Kuehlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net>, Suresh Krishnan <suresh@kaloom.com>, "loops@ietf.org" <loops@ietf.org>
To: Marie-Jose Montpetit <marie@mjmontpetit.com>
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Subject: Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next steps
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Hi, About the retransmission vs FEC (erasure coding) point, I don’t think anyone would suggest a comparison? Isn’t it clear to everybody that FEC is strictly better than retransmission if the packet loss ratio is known and it’s possible to add forward information? (else, why would FEC exist?) But I agree with Carsten that we should probably do retransmission-only first - it makes things simpler. For one, a pure retransmission-based mechanism can work without adding any forward information. And, when one *can* add forward information, FEC is an obvious “++" that shouldn’t change anything about the architecture but simply make things better. Just my 2c Cheers, Michael > On Jul 31, 2019, at 7:02 PM, Marie-Jose Montpetit <marie@mjmontpetit.com> wrote: > > I had read the charter :) > > And local/recovery and measurements is not very specific :) But ok I guess it will evolve. > > And as regard retransmission I am looking forward to see the results vs. a true erasure recovery mechanism in terms of efficiency and complexity.. > > mjm > > Marie-José Montpetit, Ph.D. > Research Affiliate, MIT Media Laboratory > mariejose@mjmontpetit.com <mailto:mariejose@mjmontpetit.com> > mariejo@mit.edu <mailto:mariejo@mit.edu> > On July 31, 2019 at 10:06:12 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com <mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> (mohamed.boucadair@orange.com <mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>) wrote: > >> Re-, >> >> >> Local recovery/local measurement isn’t specific enough? >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> Med >> >> >> De : Marie-Jose Montpetit [mailto:marie@mjmontpetit.com <mailto:marie@mjmontpetit.com>] >> Envoyé : mercredi 31 juillet 2019 16:02 >> À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN; Spencer Dawkins at IETF >> Cc : Suresh Krishnan; Magnus Westerlund; Mirja Kuehlewind; loops@ietf.org <mailto:loops@ietf.org> >> Objet : Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next steps >> >> >> This is a very wide scope that covers many existing groups. Can you focus on a narrower scope? >> >> >> Marie-José Montpetit, Ph.D. >> >> Research Affiliate, MIT Media Laboratory >> >> mariejose@mjmontpetit.com <mailto:mariejose@mjmontpetit.com> >> mariejo@mit.edu <mailto:mariejo@mit.edu> >> >> On July 31, 2019 at 9:55:37 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com <mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> (mohamed.boucadair@orange.com <mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>) wrote: >> >> Hi Spencer, all, >> >> >> I would restrict the host-to-network interaction to the minimum (read ECN) in the initial scope of the this proposed work. FWIW, below a tentative scope we included in the use-cases I-D: >> >> >> ========= >> >> investigate to what extent a network-assisted approach can contribute >> >> to increase the overall perceived quality of experience in specific >> >> situations (e.g., Sections 3.5 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-tsvwg-loops-problem-opportunities-03#section-3.5> and 3.6 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-tsvwg-loops-problem-opportunities-03#section-3.6> of [RFC8517 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8517>]) without >> >> requiring access to internal transport primitives. The rationale >> >> beneath this approach is that some information (loss detection, >> >> better visibility on available paths and their characteristics, etc.) >> >> can be used to trigger local actions while avoiding as much as >> >> possible undesired side effects (e.g., expose a behavior that would >> >> be interpreted by an endpoint as an anomaly (corrupt data) and which >> >> would lead to exacerbate end-to-end recovery.. Such local actions >> >> would have a faster effect (e.g., faster recovery, used multiple >> >> paths simultaneously). >> >> >> To that aim, the work is structured into two (2) phased stages: >> >> >> o Stage 1: Network-assisted optimization. This one assumes that >> >> optimizations (e.g., support latency-sensitive applications) can >> >> be implemented at the network without requiring defining new >> >> interaction with the endpoint. Existing tools such as ECN will be >> >> used. Some of these optimizations may be valuable in deployments >> >> where communications are established over paths that are not >> >> exposing the same performance characteristics. >> >> >> o Stage 2: Collaborative networking optimization. This one requires >> >> more interaction between the network and an endpoint to implement >> >> coordinated and more surgical network-assisted optimizations based >> >> on information/instructions shared by an endpoint or sharing >> >> locally-visible information with endpoint for better and faster >> >> recovery. >> >> >> Effort related to the >> >> second stage is out of scope of the initial planned work. >> >> Nevertheless, future work will be planned once progress is >> >> (hopefully) made on the first stage. >> >> ===== >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> Med >> >> >> De : LOOPS [mailto:loops-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:loops-bounces@ietf.org>] De la part de Spencer Dawkins at IETF >> Envoyé : jeudi 25 juillet 2019 20:59 >> À : Carsten Bormann >> Cc : Magnus Westerlund; Marie-Jose Montpetit; Mirja Kuehlewind; loops@ietf.org <mailto:loops@ietf.org>; Suresh Krishnan >> Objet : Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next steps >> >> >> Still wearing no hats, because I no longer have any dots ... >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 12:56 AM Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org <mailto:cabo@tzi.org>> wrote: >> >> On Jul 24, 2019, at 18:17, Marie-Jose Montpetit <marie@mjmontpetit.com <mailto:marie@mjmontpetit.com>> wrote: >> > >> > Standardisation of what? The architecture? The protocols (beware there is already FECFRAME and others)? The proxies? >> >> Hi Marie-José, >> >> details of the thinking that was developed in the side meetings that happened at the previous two IETF meetings can be found at >> >> https://github.com/loops-wg/charter <https://github.com/loops-wg/charter> >> >> The BOF actually added one piece of information I didn’t previously perceive that way: >> People seem to really want to tackle the host-to-node case (as needed, e.g., for going through WiFi access clouds) right away, not just the in-network (node-to-node) case. That would be the one thing I would change based on my recollection of the BOF. But of course there may be other things; it may be worth to now have another round of discussion of the proposed charter. >> >> >> Communication is good, but one thing I mentioned in my summary of my chat with the ADs was >> >> Here's a hint from the ADs - if the proponents can come up with a clear charter, limited in scope, that will make their lives easier, and make it easier for them to charter this work :D >> So, it's reasonable for the LOOPS community to consider adding host-to-node, but it's worth checking whether this would expand the scope of the requested charter, and whether excluding host-to-node makes the initial work easier to complete. >> >> >> My impression, and Magnus might say I'm insane, was that Magnus is right on the edge of whether this work can be chartered without a second, working group-forming BOF. If the LOOPS community can't live without host-to-node, the community should add it.. If the community can make use of LOOPS without host-to-node and add it later, the community might consider whether that reduces the scope of the initial proposed charter enough to help Magnus approve it :-) >> >> >> Best wishes, >> >> >> Spencer >> >> -- >> LOOPS mailing list >> LOOPS@ietf.org <mailto:LOOPS@ietf.org> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/loops <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/loops>-- > LOOPS mailing list > LOOPS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/loops
- [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next steps Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Marie-Jose Montpetit
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Marie-Jose Montpetit
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Marie-Jose Montpetit
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Marie-Jose Montpetit
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Marie-Jose Montpetit
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Michael Welzl
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Liyizhou
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Marie-Jose Montpetit
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Marie-Jose Montpetit
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Emmanuel Lochin
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Wesley Eddy
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Marie-Jose Montpetit
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Wesley Eddy
- Re: [LOOPS] [nwcrg] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOO… Stuart William Card
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Michael Welzl
- Re: [LOOPS] [nwcrg] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOO… Colin Perkins
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Wesley Eddy
- Re: [LOOPS] [nwcrg] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOO… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Marie-Jose Montpetit
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [LOOPS] [nwcrg] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOO… Colin Perkins
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Marie-Jose Montpetit
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Michael Welzl
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Marie-Jose Montpetit
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Marie-Jose Montpetit
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Colin Perkins
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Marie-Jose Montpetit
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Colin Perkins
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Marie-Jose Montpetit