Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next steps
Marie-Jose Montpetit <marie@mjmontpetit.com> Tue, 30 July 2019 14:42 UTC
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From: Marie-Jose Montpetit <marie@mjmontpetit.com>
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To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>, Mirja Kuehlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net>, "nwcrg@irtf.org" <nwcrg@irtf.org>
Cc: Suresh Krishnan <suresh@kaloom.com>, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>, Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>, loops@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next steps
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Since most of your questions are related to FEC I copy the nwcrg. See <mjm> below mjm Marie-José Montpetit, Ph.D. Research Affiliate, MIT Media Laboratory mariejose@mjmontpetit.com mariejo@mit.edu On July 30, 2019 at 10:23:04 AM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF ( spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com) wrote: Hi, Mirja, On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 5:34 AM Mirja Kuehlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net> wrote: > Hi Carsten, hi Spencer, > > > On 25. Jul 2019, at 20:59, Spencer Dawkins at IETF < > spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > My impression, and Magnus might say I'm insane, was that Magnus is right > on the edge of whether this work can be chartered without a second, working > group-forming BOF. If the LOOPS community can't live without host-to-node, > the community should add it. If the community can make use of LOOPS without > host-to-node and add it later, the community might consider whether that > reduces the scope of the initial proposed charter enough to help Magnus > approve it :-) > > Yes, it would be possible to charter without another BoF a small and > well-scoped group, however, it also would be possible to work on small and > well-defined pieces of work without a new working group. This was one of > the reasons why this was not a non-wg-forming BoF because it is not clear > yet if a new group is needed or the resulting pieces of standardization > work are small enough to fit into an existing group. > > Therefore, I really recommend focus on defining the standardising work > items that you think are needed rather than trying to do any word-smithing > of a potential charter (that eventually is not needed). > Thanks for giving me the chance to clarify - I really was talking about chartering work, not just chartering a working group, but that wasn't clear from my note. As you said, knowing what the work is, in more detail, will help you and Magnus know what to do next. So, my suggestion for the interested community is to nail down 1. In order to "do LOOPS", what already exists, that can be used without changes? 2. what already exists, but needs to be extended for LOOPS? 3. what needs to be created, because nothing exists that meets the needs? I'm not a LOOPS proponent (the ADs asked me to chair the BOF about a month before IETF 105), but speaking as someone who hasn't been involved in depth, I wonder about 1. How a sender tunes FEC dynamically - is that automatic, based on FEC mechanisms people are thinking about, or is there work to do there? <mjm> There are FEC mechanisms to adapt coding dynamically based on acknowledgments for example. In the QUICK implementation we will have flag a RECOVERED packet that could be used to adapt the coding rate. Other implementations or code-specific protocols are also available. 1. How a sender knows whether to do FEC, retransmission, or both FEC and retransmission, dynamically? <mjm> Well the use of FEC (or not) is a design decision. Of course you need the code (and the libraries). And then the decision will be based on known link condition, goodput, expected performance, type of traffic (video, time sensitive etc.). And finding a tunnel and PEPs if you need to. And it can depend on path statistics and not being end to end. I am not sure you could standardize that decision. 1. How a sender knows that it shouldn't be doing anything, because anything it does won't help ("first, do no harm")? <mjm> Of course in a congested network doing nothing is probably best. Again there is a lot of work on the interaction of coding and congestion control. <mjm> Not everyone knows the things but there has been a lot of work in FECFRAME (in IETF) and NWCRG. Someone did mention that a lot of the work was done in a research group not a working group. But real implementations exist in famous “networks". <mjm> Since most of your questions are about erasure coding (coding for packet loss) is that a direction LOOPS wants to take? Somekind of nwcWG? mjm Does everyone know how to do those three things, except me? :-) Pointers to specifications would be awesome ... Spencer > Mirja > > > > -- LOOPS mailing list LOOPS@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/loops
- [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next steps Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Marie-Jose Montpetit
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Marie-Jose Montpetit
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Marie-Jose Montpetit
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Marie-Jose Montpetit
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Marie-Jose Montpetit
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Michael Welzl
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Liyizhou
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Marie-Jose Montpetit
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Marie-Jose Montpetit
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Emmanuel Lochin
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Wesley Eddy
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Marie-Jose Montpetit
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Wesley Eddy
- Re: [LOOPS] [nwcrg] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOO… Stuart William Card
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Michael Welzl
- Re: [LOOPS] [nwcrg] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOO… Colin Perkins
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Wesley Eddy
- Re: [LOOPS] [nwcrg] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOO… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Marie-Jose Montpetit
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [LOOPS] [nwcrg] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOO… Colin Perkins
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Marie-Jose Montpetit
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Michael Welzl
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Marie-Jose Montpetit
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Marie-Jose Montpetit
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Colin Perkins
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Marie-Jose Montpetit
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Colin Perkins
- Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next … Marie-Jose Montpetit