Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next steps

Wesley Eddy <wes@mti-systems.com> Wed, 31 July 2019 12:56 UTC

Return-Path: <wes@mti-systems.com>
X-Original-To: loops@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: loops@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77050120128 for <loops@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 05:56:11 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.9
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mti-systems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GRlQD__e1cwn for <loops@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 05:56:09 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-io1-xd34.google.com (mail-io1-xd34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C9784120018 for <loops@ietf.org>; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 05:56:09 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-io1-xd34.google.com with SMTP id g20so135969220ioc.12 for <loops@ietf.org>; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 05:56:09 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mti-systems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=3pNftcCS2Jznk0buGRjQZn0HQHJeuXY4tfrJ0qNQpLg=; b=s3zKIuPZvt05jsu+1ZfIJKN+5TtITblPIoXAV7vpbJMrLqYtxoViXH8WaBfuj4VVWm OMw2rnXeYKGYKtsrFbXwALn9x8oMfYU/lFVHLCYRP51oy+CXiVJ8YjQwX3mXuaxZ39DL 1nz1ulm64t8NhpqtR81JSZkrnqaH98Gl9gcP9NrNciukyQ8o4sxsg9RJhep9bI48i1KS eN/FzfQqzUZLKe1INiFiHAQX3LBefOIgX1TQWwPeQAH7GQlq2hW0wW9RdOPGBy/2Cg4T e8npf/MOrrNqK2p0h7R7qoduiXwSoBivn7NhhIdNCBE680gaJBQOygyIzZH7Rmx+RuXh RiWQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=3pNftcCS2Jznk0buGRjQZn0HQHJeuXY4tfrJ0qNQpLg=; b=KSs7TYO9yveVIvsnX9uFV9mIS/+ld0SD7SajU00EDl7yuFNmUwLSjTHzt0X14+R8Rv lwJjiXzsa7VMdrssnwyc7J2TMPZz2oB1+1hIUCwv8Sk41gtAa2WfMuXYBBjGVAaDBagX gJCUstVsGuHxkye7CdrCH3ufh2ZdWFZpU5lJ53tt0XdAv/Z1QCTCPh9/jj9u8Lwn21ZZ 9Fd1Q52jCEUFpy5YpytCgQakzKE+XtuO5mY6xmpsz9NDU8G/c6VtUC5gksEwmAK0O/i/ w8TMBnMlI2QTmPTfnE80jt99ebdmeONLTygP1OfdSlvI9jSQy00CLHTv8LqjBx4GiWRp sMCQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXd6jyTl2HDZw3UjW8ydpWNRYDw47IW+y3frpcsAVoJ1nP5mcj+ 4GxVF12PWq8lj/q1OamwAB67Fb3d
X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzURT+Er0fVDTSwrjDwq7FNbeDHSdul5zo22eA2C08kOW4nA/hP/K8loI4hLQDt8xGumXT2dw==
X-Received: by 2002:a5e:9404:: with SMTP id q4mr51973121ioj.46.1564577768897; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 05:56:08 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.1.119] (rrcs-69-135-1-122.central.biz.rr.com. [69.135.1.122]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n21sm48237436ioh.30.2019.07.31.05.56.07 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 31 Jul 2019 05:56:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: Michael Welzl <michawe@ifi.uio.no>
Cc: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>, loops@ietf.org
References: <CAKKJt-eRGJe+9PtEC7xgFz+HA0zsr_sR0NUgKRmJ-P5Q3XBg-A@mail.gmail.com> <CAPjWiCSbPioTHkYBpX73qxzO=H1sJDZpCMCKzBKoU4rZLLhwMQ@mail.gmail.com> <E6659E42-D6D7-4033-B4D6-9305823063D2@tzi.org> <CAKKJt-c24RdPyZRoK-B6fXuN0xABUsU=p7Y6UFwAcENfjE3oOQ@mail.gmail.com> <A4576796-AACA-4BE1-9EF8-9422E1BAB9F3@kuehlewind.net> <CAKKJt-dCeJVhofU8eO=TXu6CVez5g9ZTdLnp206gx6X3YTx9tA@mail.gmail.com> <c8c5332d-a41d-7750-5605-285b9c449b8a@mti-systems.com> <989AE262-118E-479B-A3FF-1964166F8A32@tzi.org> <6e81559d-2e7e-7c7c-c94d-b712ab264102@mti-systems.com> <579BEAE9-23E2-4E4F-BA26-6FA7F7C9CF6D@ifi.uio.no>
From: Wesley Eddy <wes@mti-systems.com>
Message-ID: <3d808274-38d7-98eb-42b7-875f2f840f29@mti-systems.com>
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 08:56:05 -0400
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <579BEAE9-23E2-4E4F-BA26-6FA7F7C9CF6D@ifi.uio.no>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Content-Language: en-US
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/loops/umTUCCCvr-eCaLW2Ozga2rfLnIU>
Subject: Re: [LOOPS] BOF co-chairs thinking on LOOPS next steps
X-BeenThere: loops@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Local Optimizations on Path Segments <loops.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/loops>, <mailto:loops-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/loops/>
List-Post: <mailto:loops@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:loops-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/loops>, <mailto:loops-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 12:56:12 -0000

On 7/31/2019 6:19 AM, Michael Welzl wrote:
> Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t understand the potential for negative interactions, positive feedback loops etc:
>
> LOOPS endpoints will only repair losses that they see; whatever L2 can repair wouldn’t be seen by them.
> Similarly, whatever repairing LOOPS does wouldn’t be understood by L2 devices - in particular if we’re talking about modems and not PEPs that might try to look a bit deeper into the packets.
>

I think some of it may depend on what LOOPS sees and acts on (aggregate 
of flows or per-flow information), since some flows may be treated 
entirely differently by the lower layer, and may be okay (or even 
desire) different treatment.

In LOOPS tunneling, do different traffic classes wind up in different 
tunnels, or are they all lumped into the same tunnel?