Re: [Lsr] AD Review of draft-ietf-isis-reverse-metric-11

Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com> Thu, 06 September 2018 16:47 UTC

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To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>, "draft-ietf-isis-reverse-metric@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-isis-reverse-metric@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] AD Review of draft-ietf-isis-reverse-metric-11
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On August 31, 2018 at 5:13:20 PM, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) (
ginsberg@cisco.com) wrote:

Les:

Hi!

I am not an author of this draft – but there are a couple of points that I
want to respond to in my role as Designated Expert for the IS-IS IANA
Codepoint Registries.

...


From: Lsr <lsr-bounces@ietf.org>; On Behalf Of Alvaro Retana
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2018 12:27 PM
To: draft-ietf-isis-reverse-metric@ietf.org
Cc: lsr-chairs@ietf.org; Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>;; lsr@ietf.org
Subject: [Lsr] AD Review of draft-ietf-isis-reverse-metric-11

...

Note that I read -11, but -12 was published in the interim -- so I'm
putting this comment up here.  The only change in -12 is the addition (in
the IANA Considerations section) of "a new registry for sub-TLVs of the
Reverse Metric TLV".  Why do we need this new registry?  The description
(in §2) of the use of this sub-TLV already references rfc5305 (where a TE
Default Metric sub-TLV is already defined), so it seemed somewhat natural
to me to simply reuse that sub-TLV here.  From the discussion on the list,
I understand the intent to "future proof", even if no other applications
come to mind.  If that is the path we want to go, then we'll need a
complete description of the new sub-TLV as well. [Some of my comments
bellow assume the existing sub-TLV from rfc5305.]



[Les:] The sub-TLV used matches the content of
https://www.iana.org/assignments/isis-tlv-codepoints/isis-tlv-codepoints.xhtml#isis-tlv-codepoints-22-23-25-141-222-223
 sub-TLV 18.

However, the definition in this registry cannot be used to define the
sub-TLV when sent in the Reverse Metric TLV unless we were willing to say
that the above registry also applies to the Reverse-Metric TLV. As
Designated Expert I would strongly object to such a suggestion as it is
clear that no other sub-TLV in this registry is applicable to the Reverse
Metric TLV.

That explanation works for me.

...

178       The Reverse Metric TLV is optional.  The Reverse Metric TLV may be

179       present in any IS-IS Hello PDU.  A sender MUST only transmit a
single

180       Reverse Metric TLV in a IS-IS Hello PDU.  If a received IS-IS
Hello

181       PDU contains more than one Reverse Metric TLV, an implementation

182       SHOULD ignore all the Reverse Metric TLVs and treat it as an error

183       condition.



[nit] The first two sentences sound redundant to me.

[major] The text above is not specific about which PDUs can include the
Reverse Metric TLV.  The text does say that it is optional and that it may
be in an IIH once...but it doesn't say anything about other PDUs.  The IANA
Considerations section contains the attributes to be included in the
registry, but those are not Normative.



[Les:] I strongly disagree. The permitted PDUs columns in the IANA registry
are intended to be normative. And the normative behavior (derived from ISO
10589 specification) is:

“TLVs received in a non-permitted PDU MUST be ignored.”

First of all, the IANA registries are not Normative, regardless of the
intention.  IANA basically coordinates the assignment of protocol
parameters [rfc2860] [rfc8126].  Note that guidance from IANA itself about
what should not be in IANA Considerations (and therefore not in the
registries) includes "Descriptions of how registered values should/should
not be used”. [1]


My point with this document is that in the section that describe the use of
the new TLV (§2, in this case) is not specific about which PDUs can contain
the TLV.  The text above just says "TLV may be present in any IS-IS Hello
PDU”.  I’m specifically looking for a sentence that says (something to the
effect of): “This TLV is only permitted in an IIH.”   Then the behavior
from 10589 kicks in because we clearly know which are the non-permitted
PDUs.

[1] https://www.iana.org/help/protocol-registration


(There is one exception to that related to LSP purges – but that is
explicitly stated in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6233 )

You and I have discussed this privately. If you feel that this behavior is
insufficiently specified then let’s please fix it by adding normative
language to
https://www.iana.org/assignments/isis-tlv-codepoints/isis-tlv-codepoints.xhtml
 .

The registry is authoritative about the assignments, but it is not
Normative as to the behavior of (in this case) the TLVs that use those
assignments.

Requiring such specification in individual RFCs would mean that we would
have to generate bis versions of any existing RFC that defines a TLV
codepoint.

Requiring an RFC to document the specific behavior of an extension is not a
new requirement.

If we deem it necessary, I volunteer to do what is necessary to get the
registry updated appropriately.

Instead of trying to describe behavior in the registry, or generating bis
versions, an easier move might be to Update the existing RFCs with a single
document.  To be clear, none of that is a requirement to move this document
forward…which is my immediate concern.

Thanks!

Alvaro.