Re: [Lsr] Flooding across a network

"Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com> Wed, 06 May 2020 14:52 UTC

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From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
To: "bruno.decraene@orange.com" <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
CC: "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Flooding across a network
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] Flooding across a network
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Bruno -

The key in this example is when all nodes in the network realize that there are no longer any northbound paths via C.
I am willing to stipulate that nodes that can receive LSPs faster will also be able to flood LSPs faster. If that isn't the case we might as well all stop working on faster flooding.

In the example, all nodes other than D will have reconverged to a topology with no northbound paths via C in time (2 seconds + network propagation time + FIB update time).
How long would you like to allow for this? 10 seconds? 15 seconds?
That still leaves Node D in an inconsistent state for 35+ seconds where it thinks there are still Northbound paths via C.

If all nodes support the same flooding rate (faster or slower) they will all reach an LSDB state where there are no Northbound paths via C within a few seconds of each other.
So - yes - there can still be loops even with consistent flooding rates - but they will be an order of magnitude shorter (a few seconds vs 50 seconds in the example).

  Les


From: Lsr <lsr-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of bruno.decraene@orange.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2020 7:33 AM
To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <ginsberg@cisco.com>
Cc: lsr@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Flooding across a network

Les,

From: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) [mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 6, 2020 4:14 PM
To: DECRAENE Bruno TGI/OLN
Cc: lsr@ietf.org<mailto:lsr@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Flooding across a network

Bruno -

I am somewhat at a loss to understand your comments.
The example is straightforward and does not need to consider FIB update time nor the ordering of prefix updates on different nodes.
[Bruno] The example is straightforward but you are referring to FIB and IP packets forwarding as per those FIBs.
I'd like we focus on LSP flooding and LSDB consistency.

Consider the state of Node B and Node D at various time points from the trigger event.

T+ 2 seconds:
-----------------
B has received all LSP Updates. It triggers an SPF and for all Northbound destinations previously reachable via C it installs paths via D.
Let's assume it take 5 seconds to update the forwarding plane.

D has received 40 of the 1000 LSP updates. It triggers an SPF and finds that all Northbound destinations are reachable via B-C. It makes no changes to the forwarding plane.

T+7 seconds
-----------------
B has completed FIB updates. Traffic to all Northbound destinations is being forwarded via D.

D has now received 140 of the 1000 LSP updates. Entries in its forwarding plane for Northbound destinations still point to B.

We have a loop.

T + 30 seconds
--------------------
D has now received 600 of the 1000 LSP updates. Still no changes to its forwarding plane.
Traffic to Northbound destinations is still looping.

T+ 50 seconds
-------------------
D has finally received all 1000 LSP updates..
It triggers (another) SPF and calculates paths to Northbound destinations via E. It begins to update its forwarding plane.
Let's assume this will take 5 seconds..

T + 55 seconds
--------------------
D has completed forwarding plane updates - no more looping.

That is all I am trying to illustrate.

If you want to start arguing that node protecting LFAs + microloop avoidance could help (NOTE I explicitly  took those out of the example for simplicity) - it is easy enough to change the example to include multiple node failures or a node failure plus some northbound link failures on other nodes.
[Bruno] I'm not talking about LFA/FRR. And with regards to microloops avoidance, some algorithms can handle any graph transition so including multiple node failures.

But again, let's stick to LSP flooding and LSDB consistency. (you are the one speaking about microloops in the forwarding plane).

The point here is to look at the impact of long-lived LSDB inconsistency which results when some nodes support flooding an order of magnitude faster flooding than other nodes - which is what you asked me to clarify.
[Bruno] No. I asked you to clarify why having a node with faster flooding could prolongs the period of LSDB inconsistency.

Again, with you own words: "when only some nodes in the network support faster flooding the behavior of the whole network may not be "better" when faster flooding is enabled because it prolongs the period of LSDB inconsistency."
And with less words: "when only some nodes in the network support faster flooding [...]  it prolongs the period of LSDB inconsistency."

--Bruno

   Les



From: bruno.decraene@orange.com<mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com> <bruno.decraene@orange.com<mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2020 6:21 AM
To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <ginsberg@cisco.com<mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com>>
Cc: lsr@ietf.org<mailto:lsr@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Flooding across a network

Les,

From: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) [mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 6, 2020 1:35 AM
To: DECRAENE Bruno TGI/OLN; lsr@ietf..org<mailto:lsr@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Flooding across a network


Bruno -



Seems like it was not too long ago that we were discussing this in person.  Ahhh...the good old days...

[Bruno] Indeed, may be not to the point of concluding. Indeed.



First, let's agree that the interesting case does not involve 1 or even a small number of LSPs. For those cases flooding speed does not matter.

The interesting cases involve a large number of LSPs (hundreds or thousands). And in such cases LFA/microloop avoidance techniques are not applicable.



Take the following simple topology:



   |  | ... |            |

     +---+             +---+

     | C |             | E |

     +---+             +---+

       |                 | 1000

     +---+             +---+

     | B |-------------| D |

     +---+   1000      +---+

       |                 |

       |                 |

        \               /

         \            /

          \         /

           \      /

             +---+

             | A |

             +---+



There is a topology northbound of C and E (not shown) and a topology southbound of A (not shown).

Cost on all links is 10 except B-D and D-E where cost is high.



C is a node with 1000 neighbors.

When all links are up, shortest path for all northbound destinations is via C.

All nodes in the network support fast flooding except for Node D.

Let's say fast flooding is 500 LSPs/second and slow flooding (Node D) is 20 LSPs/seconds.

If  Node C fails we have 1000 LSPs to flood.

All nodes except for D can receive these in 2 seconds (plus internode delay time).

D can receive LSPs in 50 seconds.



[Bruno] Thanks for your example. Agreed so far.



When A and B and all southbound nodes receive/process the LSP updates they will start sending traffic to Northbound destinations via D.

But for the better part of 50 seconds, Node D has yet to receive all LSP updates and still believes that shortest path is via B-C. It will loop traffic.



[Bruno] May I remind you that we are discussing IS-IS flooding in order to sync LSDB (LSP database). That is already a big enough subject. It does not including FIB (updates), nor IP forwarding.



Quoting you "when only some nodes in the network support faster flooding the behavior of the whole network may not be "better" when faster flooding is enabled because it prolongs the period of LSDB inconsistency."



Taking your own examples, in both cases (all nodes support fast flooding; all nodes but D support fast flooding) the period of LSDB inconsistency is 50 seconds. Hence this example does not illustrate your statement.



Hence I'm restating my questions:



> > when only some nodes in the network support faster flooding the behavior

> of the whole network may not be "better" when faster flooding is enabled

> because it prolongs the period of LSDB inconsistency.

>

> 1) Do you have data on this?

>

> 2) If not, can you provide an example where increasing the flooding rate on

> one adjacency prolongs the period of LSDB inconsistency across the

> network?





Had all nodes used slow flooding, it still would have taken 50 seconds to converge, but there would be significantly less looping. There could be a good amount of blackholing, but this is preferable to looping.

[Bruno] You are using an example where ordering FIB updates across the network, e.g. as per [1], allows to reduce _FIB_ inconsistency across the path/network. And you seem to conclude from this that this translates to LSDB update ordering. Those are two different things. In this thread, I'd suggest that we focus on IGP flooding and LSDB sync only. (*)

[1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6976

(*) We can discuss loop free IGP converge in a different thread if you want. IMO, the use of segment routing/source routing is better than oFIB. But at some point, it still relies on fast flooding when multiple LSPs are involved. (and I mean _fast_ not _ordered_)



--Bruno



One can always come up with examples - based on a specific topology and a specific failure - where things might be better/worse/unchanged in the face of inconsistent flooding speed support.

But I hope this simple example illustrates the pitfalls.



    Les



> -----Original Message-----

> From: bruno.decraene@orange.com<mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com> <bruno.decraene@orange.com<mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com>>

> Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2020 8:28 AM

> To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <ginsberg@cisco.com<mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com>>; lsr@ietf.org<mailto:lsr@ietf.org>

> Subject: Flooding across a network

>

> Les,

>

> > From: Lsr [mailto:lsr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Les Ginsberg

> (ginsberg)

> > Sent: Monday, May 4, 2020 4:39 PM

> [...]

> > when only some nodes in the network support faster flooding the behavior

> of the whole network may not be "better" when faster flooding is enabled

> because it prolongs the period of LSDB inconsistency.

>

> 1) Do you have data on this?

>

> 2) If not, can you provide an example where increasing the flooding rate on

> one adjacency prolongs the period of LSDB inconsistency across the

> network?

>

> 3) In the meantime, let's try the theoretical analysis on a simple scenario

> where a single LSP needs to be flooded across the network.

>

> - Let's call Dij the time needed to flood the LSP from node i to the adjacent

> node j. Clearly Dij>0.

> - Let's call k the node originating this LSP at t0=0s

>

> >From t0, the LSDB is inconsistent across the network as all nodes but k are

> missing the LSP and hence only know about the 'old' topology.

>

> Let's call  SPT(k) the SPT rooted on k, using Dij as the metric between

> adjacent nodes i and j. Let's call SP(k,i) the shortest path from k to i; and

> D(k,i) the shortest distance between k and i.

>

> It seems that the time needed:

> - for node j to learn about the LSP, and get in sync with k, is D(k,j)

> - for all nodes across the network to learn about the LSP, and get in sync with

> k, is Max[for all j] D(k,j)

>

> Then how can reducing the flooding delay on one adjacency could prolongs

> the period of LSDB inconsistency?

> It seems to me that it can only improve/decrease it. Otherwise, this would

> mean that decreasing the cost on a link can increase the cost of the shortest

> path.

>

> Note: I agree that there are other cases, such as  multiple LSPs originated by

> the same node, and multiple LSPs originated by multiple nodes, but let's start

> with the simple case.

>

> Thanks,

> --Bruno

>

> > -----Original Message-----

> > From: Lsr [mailto:lsr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Les Ginsberg

> (ginsberg)

> > Sent: Monday, May 4, 2020 4:39 PM

> >

> > Henk -

> >

> > Thanx for your thoughtful posts.

> > I have read your later posts on this thread as well - but decided to reply to

> this one.

> > Top posting for better readability.

> >

> > There is broad agreement that faster flooding is desirable.

> > There are now two proposals as to how to address the issue - neither of

> which is proposing to use TCP (or equivalent).

> >

> > I have commented on why IS-IS flooding requirements are significantly

> different than that for which TCP is used.

> > I think it is also useful to note that even the simple test case which Bruno

> reported on in last week's interim meeting demonstrated that without any

> changes to the protocol at all IS-IS was able to flood an order of magnitude

> faster than it commonly does today.

> > This gives me hope that we are looking at the problem correctly and will not

> need "TCP".

> >

> > Introducing a TCP based solution requires:

> >

> > a)A major change to the adjacency formation logic

> >

> > b)Removal of the independence of the IS-IS protocol from the address

> families whose reachability advertisements it supports - something which I

> think is a great strength of the protocol - particularly in environments where

> multiple address family support is needed

> >

> > I really don't want to do either of the above.

> >

> > Your comments regarding PSNP response times are quite correct - and

> both of the draft proposals discuss this - though I agree more detail will be

> required.

> > It is intuitive that if you want to flood faster you also need to ACK faster -

> and probably even retransmit faster when that is needed.

> > The basic relationship between retransmit interval and PSNP interval is

> expressed in ISO 10589:

> >

> > " partialSNPInterval - This is the amount of time between periodic

>         > action for transmission of Partial Sequence Number PDUs.

>         > It shall be less than minimumLSPTransmission-Interval."

> >

> > Of course ISO 10589 recommended values (2 seconds and 5 seconds

> respectively) associated with a much slower flooding rate and

> implementations I am aware of use values in this order of magnitude. These

> numbers need to be reduced if we are to flood faster, but the relationship

> between the two needs to remain the same.

> >

> > It is also true - as you state - that sending ACKs more quickly will result in

> additional PDUs which need to be received/processed by IS-IS - and this has

> some impact. But I think it is reasonable to expect that an implementation

> which can support sending and receiving LSPs at a faster rate should also be

> able to send/receive PSNPs at a faster rate. But we still need to be smarter

> than sending one PSNP/one LSP in cases where we have a burst.

> >

> > LANs are a more difficult problem than P2P - and thus far draft-ginsberg-lsr-

> isis-flooding-scale has been silent on this - but not because we aren't aware

> of this - just have focused on the P2P behavior first.

> > What the best behavior on a LAN may be is something I am still considering.

> Slowing flooding down to the speed at which the slowest IS on the LAN can

> support may not be the best strategy - as it also slows down the propagation

> rate for systems downstream from the nodes on the LAN which can handle

> faster flooding - thereby having an impact on flooding speed throughout the

> network in a way which may be out of proportion. This is a smaller example

> of the larger issue that when only some nodes in the network support faster

> flooding the behavior of the whole network may not be "better" when faster

> flooding is enabled because it prolongs the period of LSDB inconsistency.

> More work needs to be done here...

> >

> > In summary, I don't expect to have to "reinvent TCP" - but I do think you

> have provided a useful perspective for us to consider as we progress on this

> topic,

> >

> > Thanx.

> >

>     > Les

> >

> >

> > > -----Original Message-----

> > > From: Lsr <lsr-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:lsr-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of Henk Smit

> > > Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2020 6:58 AM

> > > To: lsr@ietf.org<mailto:lsr@ietf.org>

> > > Subject: [Lsr] Why only a congestion-avoidance algorithm on the sender

> isn't

> > > enough

> > >

> > >

> > > Hello all,

> > >

> > > Two years ago, Gunter Van de Velde and myself published this draft:

> > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hsmit-lsr-isis-flooding-over-tcp-00

> > > That started this discussion about flow/congestion control and ISIS

> > > flooding.

> > >

> > > My thoughts were that once we start implementing new algorithms to

> > > optimize ISIS flooding speed, we'll end up with our own version of TCP.

> > > I think most people here have a good general understanding of TCP.

> > > But if not, this is a good overview how TCP does it:

> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TCP_congestion_control

> > >

> > >

> > > What does TCP do:

> > > ====

> > > TCP does 2 things: flow control and congestion control.

> > >

> > > 1) Flow control is: the receiver trying to prevent itself from being

> > > overloaded. The receiver indicates, through the receiver-window-size

> > > in the TCP acks, how much data it can or wants to receive.

> > > 2) Congestion control is: the sender trying to prevent the links between

> > > sender and receiver from being overloaded. The sender makes an

> educated

> > > guess at what speed it can send.

> > >

> > >

> > > The part we seem to be missing:

> > > ====

> > > For the sender to make a guess at what speed it can send, it looks at

> > > how the transmission is behaving. Are there drops ? What is the RTT ?

> > > Do drop-percentage and RTT change ? Do acks come in at the same rate

> > > as the sender sends segments ? Are there duplicate acks ? To be able

> > > to do this, the sender must know what to expect. How acks behave.

> > >

> > > If you want an ISIS sender to make a guess at what speed it can send,

> > > without changing the protocol, the only thing the sender can do is look

> > > at the PSNPs that come back from the receiver. But the RTT of PSNPs can

> > > not be predicted. Because a good ISIS implementation does not

> > > immediately

> > > send a PSNP when it receives a LSP. 1) the receiver should jitter the

> > > PSNP,

> > > like it should jitter all packets. And 2) the receiver should wait a

> > > little

> > > to see if it can combine multiple acks into a single PSNP packet.

> > >

> > > In TCP, if a single segment gets lost, each new segment will cause the

> > > receiver to send an ack with the seqnr of the last received byte. This

> > > is called "duplicate acks". This triggers the sender to do

> > > fast-retransmission. In ISIS, this can't be be done. The information

> > > a sender can get from looking at incoming PSNPs is a lot less than what

> > > TCP can learn from incoming acks.

> > >

> > >

> > > The problem with sender-side congestion control:

> > > ====

> > > In ISIS, all we know is that the default retransmit-interval is 5

> > > seconds.

> > > And I think most implementations use that as the default. This means

> > > that

> > > the receiver of an LSP has one requirement: send a PSNP within 5

> > > seconds.

> > > For the rest, implementations are free to send PSNPs however and

> > > whenever

> > > they want. This means a sender can not really make conclusions about

> > > flooding speed, dropped LSPs, capacity of the receiver, etc.

> > > There is no ordering when flooding LSPs, or sending PSNPs. This makes

> > > a sender-side algorithm for ISIS a lot harder.

> > >

> > > When you think about it, you realize that a sender should wait the

> > > full 5 seconds before it can make any real conclusions about dropped

> > > LSPs.

> > > If a sender looks at PSNPs to determine its flooding speed, it will

> > > probably

> > > not be able to react without a delay of a few seconds. A sender might

> > > send

> > > hunderds or thousands of LSPs in those 5 seconds, which might all or

> > > partially be dropped, complicating matters even further.

> > >

> > >

> > > A sender-sider algorithm should specify how to do PSNPs.

> > > ====

> > > So imho a sender-side only algorithm can't work just like that in a

> > > multi-vendor environment. We must not only specify a congestion-

> control

> > > algorithm for the sender. We must also specify for the receiver a more

> > > specific algorithm how and when to send PSNPs. At least how to do

> PSNPs

> > > under load.

> > >

> > > Note that this might result in the receiver sending more (and smaller)

> > > PSNPs.

> > > More packets might mean more congestion (inside routers).

> > >

> > >

> > > Will receiver-side flow-control work ?

> > > ====

> > > I don't know if that's enough. It will certainly help.

> > >

> > > I think to tackle this problem, we need 3 parts:

> > > 1) sender-side congestion-control algorithm

> > > 2) more detailed algorithm on receiver when and how to send PSNPs

> > > 3) receiver-side flow-control mechanism

> > >

> > > As discussed at length, I don't know if the ISIS process on the

> > > receiving

> > > router can actually know if its running out of resources (buffers on

> > > interfaces, linecards, etc). That's implementation dependent. A receiver

> > > can definitely advertise a fixed value. So the sender has an upper bound

> > > to use when doing congestion-control. Just like TCP has both a

> > > flow-control

> > > window and a congestion-control window, and a sender uses both.

> Maybe

> > > the

> > > receiver can even advertise a dynamic value. Maybe now, maybe only in

> > > the

> > > future. An advertised upper limit seems useful to me today.

> > >

> > >

> > > What I didn't like about our own proposal (flooding over TCP):

> > > ====

> > > The problem I saw with flooding over TCP concerns multi-point networks

> > > (LANs).

> > >

> > > When flooding over a multi-point network, setting up TCP connections

> > > introduces serious challenges. Who are the endpoints of the TCP

> > > connections ?

> > > Full mesh ? Or do all ISes on a LAN create a TCP-connection to the DIS ?

> > > There is no backup DIS in ISIS (unlike OSPF). Things get messy quickly.

> > >

> > > However, the other two proposals do not solve this problem either.

> > > How will a sender-side congestion-avoidence algorithm determine

> whether

> > > there were drops ? There are no acks (PSNPs) on a LAN. We assume most

> > > LSPs

> > > that are broadcasted are received by all other ISes on the LAN. There

> > > are

> > > no acks. Only after the DIS has sent its periodic CSNPs, ISes can send

> > > PSNPs to request retransmissions. It seems impossible (or very hard) to

> > > me for all ISes on a LAN to keep track of dropped LSPs and adjust their

> > > sending speed accordingly..

> > >

> > > When flooding on a LAN, the receiver-side algorithm seems best.

> Because

> > > all ISes can see what the lowest advertised sending-speed is. And make

> > > sure they send slow enough to not overload the slowest IS. I'm not sure

> > > this is a good solution, but is seems easier and more realistic than

> > > ISIS-flooding-over-TCP or sender-side congestion-avoidance.

> > >

> > >

> > > My conclusion:

> > > ====

> > > Sender-side congestion-control won't work without specifying in more

> > > detail how and when to send PSNPs.

> > > Receiver-side flow-control will certainly help. I dont' know if it's

> > > good enough. I don't know if advertising a static value is good enough.

> > > But it's a start.

> > >

> > > I still think we'll end up re-implementing a new (and weaker) TCP.

> > >

> > >

> > > henk.

> > >

> > > _______________________________________________

> > > Lsr mailing list

> > > Lsr@ietf.org<mailto:Lsr@ietf.org>

> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr

> >

> > _______________________________________________

> > Lsr mailing list

> > Lsr@ietf.org<mailto:Lsr@ietf.org>

> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr

>

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> __________________________________________________________

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