Re: [Lsr] John Scudder's No Objection on draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-14: (with COMMENT)

"Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com> Mon, 17 May 2021 12:57 UTC

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From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
To: John Scudder <jgs=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
CC: Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com>, "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>, "Peter Psenak (ppsenak)" <ppsenak@cisco.com>, "John Scudder via Datatracker" <noreply@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions@ietf.org>, "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>, "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" <lsr-chairs@ietf.org>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
Thread-Topic: John Scudder's No Objection on draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-14: (with COMMENT)
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Date: Mon, 17 May 2021 12:56:11 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] John Scudder's No Objection on draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-14: (with COMMENT)
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Hi John,
Yes – I think “updates” should be removed. Registries are created explicitly for the purpose of tracking extensions and every document that adds to a registry should not update the document creating that registry. Now if the definition or application of the registry were changed, which I don’t believe is the case here, then we could consider “updates”.
Thanks,
Acee

From: John Scudder <jgs=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
Date: Monday, May 17, 2021 at 8:48 AM
To: Acee Lindem <acee@cisco.com>
Cc: Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com>om>, "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>om>, "Peter Psenak (ppsenak)" <ppsenak@cisco.com>om>, John Scudder via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org>rg>, "draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions@ietf.org>rg>, "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>rg>, "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" <lsr-chairs@ietf.org>rg>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>rg>, Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
Subject: Re: John Scudder's No Objection on draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-14: (with COMMENT)

Acee,

I think you are saying you prefer to remove the “updates”. Is that right? It was a little confusing given the reply chain.

(I’ve already given my opinion but said I’m not going to go to the mat over it.)

—John


On May 17, 2021, at 8:21 AM, Acee Lindem (acee) <acee=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
That we be my preference as well. We’ve had several discussions on what constitutes “update” and I believe that the consensus was that a document isn’t “updated” unless the current behavior is changed. If we’ve done our jobs, protocols are designed to be extended and these extensions shouldn’t constitute updates.
Thanks,
Acee

From: Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Monday, May 17, 2021 at 6:55 AM
To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>om>, "Peter Psenak (ppsenak)" <ppsenak@cisco.com>om>, John Scudder <jgs=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: John Scudder via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org>rg>, "draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions@ietf.org>rg>, "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>rg>, "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" <lsr-chairs@ietf.org>rg>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>rg>, Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
Subject: Re: John Scudder's No Objection on draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-14: (with COMMENT)
Resent-From: <alias-bounces@ietf.org>
Resent-To: Yingzhen Qu <yingzhen.ietf@gmail.com>om>, Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>rg>, Acee Lindem <acee@cisco.com>
Resent-Date: Monday, May 17, 2021 at 6:54 AM

Peter:

Hi!

As John mentioned, "Since for better or worse we don’t have a firm definition of when we do, and don’t, use “updates”, it comes down to a matter of personal taste in the end.”

I rather you leave it in.

Thanks!

Alvaro.


On May 17, 2021 at 6:42:48 AM, Peter Psenak (ppsenak@cisco.com<mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com>) wrote:
John, Alvaro,

do we have a consensus whether we need the update to RFC 7370 or not?


thanks,
Peter



On 13/05/2021 21:12, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote:
> Alvaro –
>
> FWIW, I agree w John here.
>
> There are many examples – to cite a few:
>
> Sub-TLVs for TLVs 22, 23, 25, 141, 222, and 223 (Extended IS
> reachability, IS Neighbor Attribute, L2 Bundle Member Attributes,
> inter-AS reachability information, MT-ISN, and MT IS Neighbor Attribute
> TLVs)
>
> …
>
> Reference
>
>     [RFC5305][RFC5316][RFC7370][RFC8668]
>
> RFC 8868 is not marked as updating RFC 7370.
>
> RFC 7370 is not marked as updating RFC 5316/RFC 5305.
>
> Sub-TLVs for TLVs 135, 235, 236, and 237 (Extended IP reachability, MT
> IP. Reach, IPv6 IP. Reach, and MT IPv6 IP. Reach TLVs)
>
> …
>
> Reference
>
>     [RFC5305][RFC7370]
>
> Again, RFC7370 is not marked as updating RFC 5305.
>
> I think it is sufficient to request that IANA add the new RFC to the
> list of References for the modified registry.
>
>    Les
>
> *From:* Lsr <lsr-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:lsr-bounces@ietf.org>> *On Behalf Of *John Scudder
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 13, 2021 11:00 AM
> *To:* Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com<mailto:aretana.ietf@gmail.com>>
> *Cc:* John Scudder via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org<mailto:noreply@ietf.org>>; Christian Hopps
> <chopps@chopps.org<mailto:chopps@chopps.org>>; lsr-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:lsr-chairs@ietf.org>; The IESG <iesg@ietf.org<mailto:iesg@ietf.org>>;
> draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions@ietf.org>; lsr@ietf.org<mailto:lsr@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Lsr] John Scudder's No Objection on
> draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-14: (with COMMENT)
>
> On May 13, 2021, at 1:20 PM, Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com<mailto:aretana.ietf@gmail.com>
> <mailto:aretana.ietf@gmail.com<mailto:aretana.ietf@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>
>   This documents updates RFC 7370 by modifying an existing
> registry.
>
> Also, this doesn’t seem to me like an update to RFC 7370. It’s
> normal for an
> RFC to update an IANA registry, without saying it updates a
> previous RFC that
> established that registry. I think the “updates” just confuses
> matters and
> clutters things up, and should be removed.
>
>
> In this case the document is not only registering a value.  It is
> changing the name of the registry, adding an extra column, and
> updating all the other entries (§11.1.*).  The Updates tag is used
> because it significantly changes the registry.
>
> Still seems unnecessary to me, registries are moving targets, citation
> of all the relevant RFCs in their references should be sufficient. So,
> the registry would be updated so that it cited both this spec and 7370,
> and someone wanting to know “how did the registry get this way?” would
> be able to work it out.
>
> I’m not going to fight about it; the “updates” is not very harmful. I
> say “not very” because the diligent reader might be led to think they
> need to go read RFC 7370 in order to properly understand this spec, and
> waste some time realizing that isn’t true. Since for better or worse we
> don’t have a firm definition of when we do, and don’t, use “updates”, it
> comes down to a matter of personal taste in the end.
>
> $0.02,
>
> —John
>