Re: [Lsr] [Idr] WG Adoption for draft-zhu-idr-bgp-ls-path-mtu (11/1/2020 to 11/16/2020)

Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com> Mon, 16 November 2020 10:38 UTC

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From: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
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Cc: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>, "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>, "Stephane Litkowski (slitkows)" <slitkows@cisco.com>, idr@ietf.org, "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>, lsr@ietf.org
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To: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] [Idr] WG Adoption for draft-zhu-idr-bgp-ls-path-mtu (11/1/2020 to 11/16/2020)
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Sue,

Ketan’s draft would be a great starting point.

Regards,
Jeff

> On Nov 16, 2020, at 00:04, Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Sue,
>  
> I was referring to https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ketant-idr-bgp-ls-bgp-only-fabric/
>  
> Seeing the interest in the WG to progress BGP-LS advertisements in BGP-only networks, I would request for the WG to consider adoption of the above draft. I believe the problem statement of the draft is clear and acknowledge that it needs updates. So I will leave it to the chairs’ judgement if it is in a good enough state for adoption 😊
>  
> Thanks,
> Ketan
>  
> From: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com> 
> Sent: 16 November 2020 11:40
> To: 'Jeff Tantsura' <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>om>; Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <ginsberg@cisco.com>
> Cc: Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com>om>; Stephane Litkowski (slitkows) <slitkows@cisco.com>om>; idr@ietf.org; Acee Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com>om>; lsr@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Idr] WG Adoption for draft-zhu-idr-bgp-ls-path-mtu (11/1/2020 to 11/16/2020)
>  
> Jeff:
>  
> I agree your BGP-LS only deployment in the MSD document were not well defined.    
>  
> Starting a new set of work to define BGP-LS use in BGP-only is important.  If this document start the process to refine how BGP-only works, this will help defined this usage.   I stand by the agreement that the BGP-LS that exposes the OSPF/ISIS Link MTU proposal can be adopted in LSR.  However, this discussion has confirmed that the BGP-LS support for BGP-only needs some BGP focus.
>  
> If there are other drafts on this topic, it would be good to suggest this drafts on the list.   Ketan suggested he had one.
>  
> Cheers, Sue
>  
>  
> From: Jeff Tantsura [mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com] 
> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 8:52 PM
> To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)
> Cc: Ketan Talaulikar (ketant); Susan Hares; Stephane Litkowski (slitkows); idr@ietf.org; Acee Lindem (acee); lsr@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Idr] WG Adoption for draft-zhu-idr-bgp-ls-path-mtu (11/1/2020 to 11/16/2020)
>  
> To add to Les’s point of BGP only scenario, during MSD IESG reviews, BGP-LS only deployment was found not well characterized and had been removed from the draft. It will require much better discussion to have it included.
> 
> Regards,
> Jeff
>  
> 
> On Nov 13, 2020, at 15:57, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <ginsberg@cisco.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> The points which Ketan has made regarding the use of MTU advertisements defined in RFC 7176 are very valid. Indeed, the contents of the sub-TLV defined in https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc7176.html#section-2.4 depend upon the TRILL specific MTU-probe/MTU-ack procedures defined in https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6325#section-4.4.3. These procedures are not currently applicable to non-TRILL environments.
>  
> So, there are no existing IGP advertisements defined which can support the goals of this draft.
>  
> As Ketan has also indicated, there is no discussion in the draft of how a BGP only network (for example) could provide the information of interest.
>  
> From my perspective, WG adoption of this draft in ANY WG is premature.
> This might be a useful functionality to have – but at the moment we simply have an idea with no definition of how to implement/deploy it.
>  
> So I therefore oppose WG adoption of this draft by IDR.
>  
> Continuing the discussion is certainly useful – and I would encourage the current authors to investigate and propose relevant mechanisms in all the protocols of interest in some future version of the draft.
> At that point we could then have a far more meaningful WG adoption call.
>  
>    Les
>  
>  
> From: Idr <idr-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 1:35 AM
> To: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>om>; 'Jeff Tantsura' <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>om>; 'Stephane Litkowski (slitkows)' <slitkows=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>rg>; idr@ietf.org; 'Acee Lindem (acee)' <acee=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
> Cc: lsr@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Idr] WG Adoption for draft-zhu-idr-bgp-ls-path-mtu (11/1/2020 to 11/16/2020)
>  
> Hi Authors,
>  
> I believe this work is useful and should be taken up. It has value in providing the link MTU as part of the topology information via BGP-LS. However, as pointed out by others on this thread, the draft should remain scoped to just that – i.e. providing link MTU information. The discussion related to Path MTU and applicability to SR networks are best left outside the scope of this standards track draft.
>  
> Hi Sue,
>  
> I would support the points made by Acee for not taking up this draft in IDR WG and instead doing this in LSR.
>  
> Besides the missing coverage for OSPFv2/v3, there are also issues with how this would work with ISIS. The reference to the ISIS Trill specification points to this TLV https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7176#section-2.4 – if you see, there is more here than just the MTU value. What is more critical is the ISIS procedures (in non-Trill deployments) on how this value is determined. Please do not mix the following :
>  
> The MTU sub-TLV is used to optionally announce the MTU of a link as
>    specified in [RFC6325], Section 4.2.4.4.
>  
> Are the authors trying to specify that these Trill procedures for testing MTU need to be adopted for regular ISIS deployments.
>  
> My take is that while the ISIS TLV defined for Trill may be re-used in normal ISIS deployments, its usage and procedures need to be specified. Copying the LSR WG so that I may be corrected if I am wrong here.
>  
> Coming to the point of BGP-only networks, the draft has zero text related to that scenario. Moreover, the procedures for BGP-LS advertisements in BGP only fabric need to be specified as a base. The https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ketant-idr-bgp-ls-bgp-only-fabric/ was my attempt to specify those procedures and it would be great if the IDR WG could review and provide feedback to this document and consider for adoption so we can cover the BGP-only networks.
>  
> I would also like to offer support/help to the authors in adding the necessary OSPFv2/v3 support for the same in an LSR draft where we could tackle both the IGPs and BGP-LS encoding and procedures together.
>  
> Thanks,
> Ketan
>  
> From: Idr <idr-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Susan Hares
> Sent: 13 November 2020 00:20
> To: 'Jeff Tantsura' <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>om>; 'Stephane Litkowski (slitkows)' <slitkows=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>rg>; idr@ietf.org; 'Acee Lindem (acee)' <acee=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Idr] WG Adoption for draft-zhu-idr-bgp-ls-path-mtu (11/1/2020 to 11/16/2020)
>  
> Jeff and Authors of draft-zhu-idr-bgp-ls-path-mtu:
>  
> I do believe the authors agreed to renaming the draft.   
>  
> Does the name:   draft-xxx-idr-bgp-ls-link-mtu work for
> the authors and interested IDR participants.
>  
> As the end of 12 days of the 14 day WG LC, this draft appears
> to have general consensus from the WG as a useful draft.
>  
> I plan to allow 2 more days of comment, but at this point
> it appears the WG wishes to adopt this draft. 
>  
> Here’s my understanding of the best way forward:
>  
> If LSR adopts a version of the draft, IDR will allow the
> LSR WG to be the main source as long as cross-working
> review occurs so the BGP-only function can be reviewed.
>  
> Please continue to comment on the draft and
> the planned progression.
>  
> Cheers,  Sue
>  
> From: Jeff Tantsura [mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2020 12:53 PM
> To: Susan Hares; Stephane Litkowski (slitkows); idr@ietf.org; Acee Lindem (acee)
> Subject: Re: [Idr] WG Adoption for draft-zhu-idr-bgp-ls-path-mtu (11/1/2020 to 11/16/2020)
>  
> +1 to everything Acee said
>  
> Cheers,
> Jeff
> On Nov 10, 2020, 1:01 PM -0800, Acee Lindem (acee) <acee=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>rg>, wrote:
> 
> Speaking as an IDR WG member:
>  
> The name of the draft is wrong – the extension is for a Link MTU and not a path MTU.
>  
> Speaking as LSR Chair:
>  
> We could this in LSR as there is currently no MTU advertisement in the LSAs for OSPFv2 and OSPFv3. Implementations already make use of this information as it is used in the OSPF DBD packets and for LSA packing. Of course, we’d require a more accurate draft name and title.
>  
> Thanks,
> Acee
>  
> From: Idr <idr-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
> Date: Monday, November 9, 2020 at 4:20 PM
> To: "'Stephane Litkowski (slitkows)'" <slitkows=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>rg>, IDR List <idr@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Idr] WG Adoption for draft-zhu-idr-bgp-ls-path-mtu (11/1/2020 to 11/16/2020)
>  
> Stephane:
>  
> My second message to this thread asked a few questions about the technology.   
>  
> This information can be more than IGP information.   If SR segments statically defined (static or direct interfaces) tunnels and pass the endpoints via BGP tunnel-encaps draft with SR Policy tunnel type, this can just be BGP.
>  
> I’ll keep this WG adoption call going until we can be sure if:  1) it something LSR wants to standardize, and 2) whether there is a BGP only case.   It is clear to me that standardizing MTU for a SR segments with stacked tunnel segments passed by BGP was useful.
>  
> The authors should be the ones to propose this in LSR.       
>  
> Cheers,  Sue
>  
> From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stephane Litkowski (slitkows)
> Sent: Monday, November 9, 2020 4:28 AM
> To: Susan Hares; idr@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Idr] WG Adoption for draft-zhu-idr-bgp-ls-path-mtu (11/1/2020 to 11/16/2020)
>  
> Hi Sue,
>  
> > The purpose behind this mechanism is to reduce administrative work rather than to reduce the review on drafts.
>  
> That’s exactly my point. If we don’t do OSPF extension now and in the same draft, we leave a gap that will require a new draft for a very very small extension. Just adds process overhead for nothing…
>  
>  
> Stephane
>  
>  
> From: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
> Sent: lundi 9 novembre 2020 10:10
> To: Stephane Litkowski (slitkows) <slitkows@cisco.com>om>; idr@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Idr] WG Adoption for draft-zhu-idr-bgp-ls-path-mtu (11/1/2020 to 11/16/2020)
>  
> Stephane:
>  
> I want to pick up on your email from two points:
>  
> 1)  Why not do everything in LSR? 
> <WG-chair hat>
> If the feature comes with interest in doing all 3 (ISIS, OSPF, and BGP-LS data gathering), then the authors may select to do everything in LSR rather than have 2 or 3 drafts to maintain.
>  
> This is optional and the mechanism may not fit every draft.   The drafts may also start out adopted and vetted in LSR and IDR.    The purpose behind this mechanism is to reduce administrative work rather than to reduce the review on drafts.
>  
> </wg-chair hat off>
>  
>  
> 2) TRILL implementations of IS-IS has some MTU subTLV - 
>  
> If you are interested in whether this has been implemented in TRILL, you might want to check with Donald Eastlake.   My vague and foggy recollection is that had some implementations or came from pre-TRILL implementations.
>  
>  
> Cheers, Susan Hares
>  
>  
>  
> From: Stephane Litkowski (slitkows) [mailto:slitkows@cisco.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2020 3:03 AM
> To: Susan Hares; idr@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Idr] WG Adoption for draft-zhu-idr-bgp-ls-path-mtu (11/1/2020 to 11/16/2020)
>  
> Hi,
>  
> “a) Are there ways to pass IGP link MTUs in
> the IGPs?  If so, is this needed in BGP-LS”
>  
> This is a valid point, most of the time BGP-LS is feeded by IGP LSDBs (of course there are other ways too). While I see that IS-IS has some MTU subTLV coming from TRILL RFC7176 (possibly never been implemented), I don’t see anything for OSPF (I’m not an OSPF expert, so I may have missed it).
> Shouldn’t this be checked and validated with LSR WG before adopting ?
>  
>  
> Stephane
>  
>  
> From: Idr <idr-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Susan Hares
> Sent: lundi 2 novembre 2020 06:04
> To: idr@ietf.org
> Subject: [Idr] WG Adoption for draft-zhu-idr-bgp-ls-path-mtu (11/1/2020 to 11/16/2020)
>  
> This begins a 2 week WG adoption call for
> draft-zhu-idr-bgp-ls-path-mtu-04.txt (11/1 – 11/16/2020).
>  
> The authors should send in an IPR statement for this draft
> by 11/5 so the WG can include the IPR status in their decision.
>  
> You can access the draft at:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zhu-idr-bgp-ls-path-mtu/
>  
> Since this draft is reference by an existing IDR draft
> I’ve included a bit of background below to help you place  
> this draft into the larger context of the SR additions to BGP-LS
> and the draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-19.txt.
>  
> This draft does continue BGP-LS additions.  if you
> are opposed to any BGP-LS additions rather than
> this specific addition, please make that clear in your
> comment in this discussion.  
>  
> The authors requested a WG adoption at IETF 108. 
> The IDR co-chairs thank the authors for their patience.   
> This draft has been delayed by process of having a
> new document shepherd (Sue Hares) come up to speed
> on draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encapsulation.
>  
> Cheers, Sue
>  
> Background
> ===========
> Segment Routing technology creates SR tunnels that are
> directly overlaid on MPLS or SRv6.  While existing MPLS technology
> (LDP and RSV-TE) provides mechanisms to negotiate path MTU
> based on individual link MTU limits, the Segment Routing (SR)
> on BGP-LS Link Attribute does not pass information on
> MTU size per link.   
>  
> draft-ietf-idr-sr-policy-path-mtu-02.txt sends PATH MTU
> information in the tunnel-encapsulation attribute for the tunnel type  
> SR-Policy that handles segment routing (SR) paths.       
> However, it lacks the information to create a reasonable
> Path size since the BGP-LS Link Attribute does distribute
> this information.
>  
> The draft proposes adding a new sub-TLV for MTU size
> to the BGP-LS Link Attribute TLV, and
> draft-ietf-idr-sr-policy-path-mtu-02.txt mentions this
> draft as one possible way to distribute the per link
> MTU.  
>  
> Questions for the authors might be:
> a) Are there ways to pass IGP link MTUs in
> the IGPs?  If so, is this needed in BGP-LS
>  
> b) What other mechanisms pass link MTU?   
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
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