Re: [Ltru] my technical position on extlang

["Mark Davis" <[e-mail]>]

Just to make sure that we're talking about content negotiation, eg using
Accept-Language to get the language for a website, where "zh" means "zh" or
anything starting with it. The key difference between the models is
identification. With the extlang model, I can't *restrict* the match to what
I want without really jumping through hoops.
Here's an example. Let's suppose that content tagged with "fr", "gsw", and
"yue" (or "zh-yue") are available, and nothing else. Let's suppose also
that I understand German, French, and Mandarin, but not any of the
following.

   - gct Colonia Tovar German
   - geh Hutterite German
   - gmh Middle High German
   - gml Middle Low German
   - goh Old High German
   - gsw Swiss German
   - nds Low German
   -
   - cjy Jinyu Chinese
   - cpx Pu-Xian Chinese
   - czh Huizhou Chinese
   - czo Min Zhong Chinese
   - gan Gan Chinese
   - hak Hakka Chinese
   - hsn Xiang Chinese
   - mnp Min Bei Chinese
   - nan Min Nan Chinese
   - wuu Wu Chinese
   - yue Yue Chinese

Both models

   - If I specify "de fr", I'll get "fr" under either model. Fine, I can
   understand "fr".
   - If I wanted to also request Swiss German as well as German, I would use
   "gsw de fr", and get "gsw".
   - I only get "gsw" if I request it. That's good, because I don't
   understand "gsw".

No Extlang Model

   - If I specify "zh cmn fr", I'll get "fr" under either model. Fine, I can
   understand "fr".
   - If I wanted to also request Cantonese as well as Mardarin, I would use
   "yue cmn zh fr" and get "yue"
   - I only get "yue" if I request it. That's good, because I don't
   understand "yue".
   - I need to include "zh", and will for the indefinite future because the
   vast majority of Mandarin content is tagged that way.
   - I might get content tagged "zh" but which is actually "yue" but the
   chances of that are extremely remote.

Extlang Model

   - If I specify "zh zh-cmn fr", I would get "zh-yue". Broken, I don't
   understand Cantonese!
   - In order to specify that I want "zh" or "cmn" but no other languages, I
   have to use "zh-cjy;q=0, zh-cpx;q=0, zh-czh;q=0, zh-czo;q=0, zh-gan;q=0,
   zh-hak;q=0, zh-hsn;q=0, zh-mnp;q=0, zh-nan;q=0, zh-wuu;q=0, zh-yue;q=0 zh
   zh-cmn fr".
   - Moreover, as you said, if another encompassed language shows up for zh,
   I could get that inadvertently unless I add this to my list.
   - Again, I need to include "zh", and will for the indefinite future
   because the vast majority of Mandarin content is tagged that way.

Mark

On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 5:11 PM, John Cowan <[e-mail]> wrote:

> Mark Davis scripsit:
>
> > If you don't have any data to back up your assertion that "The best is
> the
> > enemy of the good."....
>
> So your argument is that languages are *less* likely to be mutually
> intelligible (to some degree) if they are co-members of a macrolanguage
> than if they are not?
>
> All I need is to show that the tendency is the other way: that (a)
> getting Cantonese when you want Mandarin is no worse than getting
> Portuguese when you want French (i.e. both are equally bad); and (b)
> that getting Egyptian Arabic when you want Sa'idi Arabic is better
> than getting English when you want Greek.
>
> --
> One Word to write them all,             John Cowan <[e-mail]>
>  One Access to find them,              http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
> One Excel to count them all,
>  And thus to Windows bind them.                --Mike Champion
>



-- 
Mark

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