RE: [Ltru] Re: extlang
"Don Osborn" <dzo@bisharat.net> Tue, 20 March 2007 12:34 UTC
Return-path: <ltru-bounces@ietf.org>
Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTdXg-0001tD-18; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:34:20 -0400
Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTdXf-0001sz-9P for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:34:19 -0400
Received: from 113166.kabissa.org ([72.32.199.201] helo=kabissa.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTdXd-0008AD-FM for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:34:19 -0400
Received: (qmail 485 invoked from network); 20 Mar 2007 06:54:14 -0500
Received: from pool-71-252-39-214.washdc.east.verizon.net (HELO IBM92AA25595C4) (71.252.39.214) by 72.32.229.137 with SMTP; 20 Mar 2007 06:54:13 -0500
From: Don Osborn <dzo@bisharat.net>
To: 'GerardM' <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
References: <45FB2259.7050202@yahoo-inc.com> <006e01c7682b$f0687b10$d1397130$@net> <004501c768bb$3bc185e0$6401a8c0@DGBP7M81> <00fd01c76914$18377ae0$48a670a0$@net> <45FD1A0A.2EED@xyzzy.claranet.de> <30b660a20703181137y6448508exb3e75f8e21a80a64@mail.gmail.com> <01b801c76990$e3e9b5a0$abbd20e0$@net> <45FEA785.2080003@yahoo-inc.com> <20070320011229.GC5403@mercury.ccil.org> <000001c76aab$71a159a0$54e40ce0$@net> <41a006820703200313m491874d4i833fe13fb9108a9a@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <41a006820703200313m491874d4i833fe13fb9108a9a@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: extlang
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 07:54:08 -0400
Message-ID: <004501c76ae6$786e8600$694b9200$@net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0
Thread-Index: Acdq2HHqbkwOhSP7RAiC2GbSAgZEuAACgZPg
Content-Language: en-us
X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/)
X-Scan-Signature: c8d1e86bb8f49de8156b6392faa4a63b
Cc: 'Frank Ellermann' <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de>, ltru@lists.ietf.org
X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5
Precedence: list
List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list <ltru.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/ltru>
List-Post: <mailto:ltru@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1170320095=="
Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org
Hi Gerard, But what I have heard from some people re Arabic localization, “no one” writes “spoken Egyptian Arabic” arz (in Egypt or elsewhere). Maybe that’s an overstatement (I don’t know), but it reflects a certain reality. Which is not to suggest that ar-EG is necessarily the same as arz, but that they describe different realities (perhaps one written, one spoken? – if indeed it is that simple). In such a circumstance, what might seem to be the apparent “LCD” unit of language definition (and coding) may actually not be, or at least may not always be the single best choice. In other contexts, one might seek an appropriate level of aggregation, rather than the smallest accurate language description. Such as software localization for instance (and hence locale). So it seems that the context in combination with the specific realities of a particular macrolanguage-sublanguage(s) relationship(s) determines the choice. All the best. Don From: GerardM [mailto:gerard.meijssen@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 6:14 AM To: Don Osborn Cc: John Cowan; Addison Phillips; Frank Ellermann; ltru@lists.ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Hoi, Reading Don, it is yet another great argument to be sensible and allow for the use of tags that are the single lowest denominator for a language. Don explains quite nicely the ambiguity involved. When you have a choice between ar-EG and arz and think you can say they are the same, how would you then code spoken Egyptian as used by the immigrant community in the USA ?? I would say that ar-arz-US and arz-US are appropriate. The notion that ar-EG is necessarily the same as arz is imho wrong. Coding it like ar-EG-US is probably not acceptable. Thanks, Gerard On 3/20/07, Don Osborn <dzo@bisharat.net> wrote: Reply below... > -----Original Message----- > From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org] ... > > Addison Phillips scripsit: > > > The idea of macro-languages is that they are not, themselves, > languages. > > Rather, they are groupings of languages that can be usefully referred > to > > collectively. That is, strictly speaking, "Chinese" (meaning "zh") > isn't > > a language---and neither is "Arabic" (by which I mean the code "ar"). > > Collections are one thing and macrolanguages are another. A > macrolanguage > is a grouping of languages that can usefully be treated as a single > language in certain contexts. Thanks, John. The question I have is what are the contexts? IOW, are the various macrolanguage-sublanguage relationships, which seem to represent varying realities in terms of usage, categorizable into certain types? If so might that help discussions? "Macrolanguage" is an interesting concept, but whatever its original intent (and whatever linguists in general think of it), it seems bound to accrue other meanings and applications. This is not necessarily bad though it might complicate life for coding. Part of the issue with Arabic may be that one standard form is used pretty widely while the spoken forms vary. I've heard from localisers of Arabic that they only really use one Arabic. In the case of Arabic in Egypt, does anyone write arz? In literature, theater, journalism, or...? I don't know, but I suspect that the existence of the code for "Egyptian spoken Arabic" (which by the way is only one of the colloquial forms in the country it seems) will prompt some to choose it for what might more appropriately be ar-EG or arb-EG. The part that I don't know about Arabic far exceeds the little I think I know, so best to stop here. When I think of Fula (ff) this is another complex issue. I won't get into it now, but a couple of things come to mind: publications in the 1970s or so that treated the (macro)language as a whole, and "pan-Fula" dictionaries (with notes re different usages among the varieties of Fula). I have been talking up the idea of a pan-Fula monolingual dictionary online, and hope to discuss that some more in a few days (at ACAL/ALTA in Gainesville). It really seems like you can shift perspective and see such tongues from the point of their functional unity or their functional differences. <way out in left field>All this has me thinking that a macrolanguage is maybe something like a Platonic ideal but with a functional aspect. Thus macrolanguages are actually all over the place, but we don't see them as such since they so often coincide each with one language. So for instance Hausa is a macrolanguage with only one language (and some dialect differences from west to east). On the other hand, something like Fula is a macrolanguage with several languages that have high degrees of interintelligibility. IOW, language has an ideological component reflected in "macrolanguage," which has some practical meaning/use. Take the case of Runyakitara in western Uganda, which is a conscious effort to provide a standard for a group of 4 very close languages that also have a common historical identity - is that creating a macrolanguage or identifying something that was always there? (conversely, none of the 4 tongues under that were themselves cases of "macrolanguages" in the sense I'm exploring here).</way out in left field> Not sure that any of this helps the coding questions at hand but maybe it gives another useful perspective on possible use of "macrolanguage." All the best. Don _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
_______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
- [Ltru] Punjabi Mark Davis
- RE: [Ltru] Punjabi Don Osborn
- RE: [Ltru] Punjabi Peter Constable
- Re: [Ltru] Punjabi Mark Davis
- Re: [Ltru] Punjabi John Cowan
- RE: [Ltru] Punjabi Peter Constable
- [Ltru] Re: Punjabi Doug Ewell
- RE: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi Peter Constable
- [Ltru] Re: [everson@evertype.com: The Language Su… Doug Ewell
- RE: [Ltru] Punjabi Don Osborn
- Re: [Ltru] Re: [everson@evertype.com: The Languag… Addison Phillips
- Re: [Ltru] Punjabi Mark Davis
- RE: [Ltru] Punjabi Peter Constable
- RE: [Ltru] Punjabi Sukhjinder Sidhu
- RE: [Ltru] Punjabi Sarmad Hussain, Dr.
- Re: [Ltru] Punjabi John Cowan
- Re: [Ltru] Punjabi sukhjinder_sidhu
- Re: [Ltru] Punjabi sukhjinder_sidhu
- Re: [Ltru] Punjabi sukhjinder_sidhu
- Fwd: [Ltru] Punjabi Mark Davis
- [Ltru] Re: Punjabi Doug Ewell
- [Ltru] Punjabi Abbas Malik
- [Ltru] Re: Punjabi John Cowan
- [Ltru] extlang (was: Punjabi) Frank Ellermann
- Re: [Ltru] Punjabi Mark Davis
- Re: [Ltru] Punjabi sukhjinder_sidhu
- Re: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi Mark Davis
- Re: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi John Cowan
- Re: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi Mark Davis
- Re: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi Addison Phillips
- Re: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi Mark Davis
- Re: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi Addison Phillips
- RE: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi Don Osborn
- Re: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi Mark Davis
- RE: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi Peter Constable
- [Ltru] Re: Punjabi Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ltru] Re: Punjabi Doug Ewell
- RE: [Ltru] extlang (was: Punjabi) Don Osborn
- [Ltru] Re: extlang Frank Ellermann
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Mark Davis
- RE: [Ltru] Re: extlang Don Osborn
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Addison Phillips
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Mark Davis
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang John Cowan
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Addison Phillips
- RE: [Ltru] Re: extlang Don Osborn
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang GerardM
- RE: [Ltru] Re: extlang Don Osborn
- [Ltru] Re: extlang Stephane Bortzmeyer
- RE: [Ltru] Re: extlang Peter Constable
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Marion Gunn
- RE: [Ltru] Re: extlang Peter Constable
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Addison Phillips
- VS: [Ltru] Re: extlang Erkki I. Kolehmainen
- RE: [Ltru] Re: extlang Don Osborn
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Mark Davis
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang John Cowan
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Addison Phillips