Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext
"Debbie Garside" <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk> Thu, 07 July 2011 21:12 UTC
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From: Debbie Garside <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk>
To: 'Roozbeh Pournader' <roozbeh@htpassport.com>
References: <4E14F473.6030101@qualcomm.com> <4E152E4F.9070203@gmail.com> <CAJ2xs_Fm0NLOyL6PLps=77mb=o-gU2cCvi0=i0nj6NQJ01qnVw@mail.gmail.com> <075f01cc3cbf$0f04ba90$2d0e2fb0$@co.uk> <CAJ2xs_ED6pmF=t=0g9G5fUJH8GyM8X+G=_juC93uuw0JHtcsJQ@mail.gmail.com> <07be01cc3ce6$114dfc90$33e9f5b0$@co.uk> <1310071653.2702.3.camel@tehran.htpassport.net>
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Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2011 22:13:43 +0100
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Cc: 'Pete Resnick' <presnick@qualcomm.com>, 'CLDR list' <cldr@unicode.org>, 'LTRU Working Group' <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext
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But I still don't see why it needs to be taken out of IETF. Where is the added value? Where are discussions held? Why create another list when we already have IETF-languages? I am not trying to be obstructive and I am a supporter of Unicode but I do believe these sort of questions need answering. I really like the IETF structure as I feel it is very inclusive whereas Unicode can be exclusive. The damage that is done when controversial issues are raised and non-voting experts are over-ridden by those who pay for votes can actually put development back years as we lose those volunteers who work so fastidiously. I have heard from a colleague who has been instrumental in adding 100 locales to CLDR that many volunteers are disillusioned and have stopped contributing. I would hate for IETF to find that they agree to "outsource" this work and then find that their volunteer experts disappear. I really need to be shown the added value of outsourcing this work. I am open to being persuaded. Best regards Debbie -----Original Message----- From: cldr-bounce@unicode.org [mailto:cldr-bounce@unicode.org] On Behalf Of Roozbeh Pournader Sent: 07 July 2011 21:48 To: Debbie Garside Cc: 'Mark Davis ☕'; 'Mykyta Yevstifeyev'; 'Pete Resnick'; 'LTRU Working Group'; 'CLDR list' Subject: RE: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Not at all. You definitely get a say. You don't even need to be an individual member to get a say. Then the responsible committee discusses the issue and tries to arrive at consensus. In very few cases, there's a vote. In my experience of being in contact with the Unicode Consortium for more than a decade now (and I never had the right to vote), I'd say they are very considerate of expert opinions. They are a meritocracy, not a democracy of full members. Votes are only rarely used to decide about very controversial issues. And there aren't many of those. Roozbeh On Thu, 2011-07-07 at 21:40 +0100, Debbie Garside wrote: > Thank you. This confirms what I thought. You pay your money you get > a vote but individual members (such as me) get no say. > > > > Sorry but I cannot agree with this. It goes against the IETF ethos. > > > > Best regards > > > > Debbie > > > > > > > > From: cldr-bounce@unicode.org [mailto:cldr-bounce@unicode.org] On > Behalf Of Mark Davis ? > Sent: 07 July 2011 21:07 > To: Debbie Garside > Cc: Mykyta Yevstifeyev; Pete Resnick; LTRU Working Group; CLDR list > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext > > > > > These are not primary language subtags or variants, as covered by > BCP47. That still remains as it has been. > > > > > > This is a different area, part of an extension that is to provide a > structured approach to the specification of transliteration. The > development of extensions and their scope is covered by BCP47, and you > can find the details there. > > > > > > The Unicode CLDR committee is already serves as the registrar for the > -u- extension. The committee operates under the procedures in > http://unicode.org/consortium/tc-procedures.html, but the vast > majority of decisions are taken by consensus. The consortium is > already the Registration Authority for ISO 15924 (Scripts). > > > > > > Mark > > > — Il meglio è l’inimico del bene — > > > > On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 09:00, Debbie Garside > <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk> wrote: > > I am also concerned about the structure of the Unicode Committee and > voting rights. Perhaps someone can explain how this will work and why > it is required in addition to the current structure for the > registration of language tags. > > > > Have I missed something here? (I probably have as I have been away > from the list for some time) Have Unicode already taken over some of > the duties of the BCP47 registrar? > > > > Best wishes > > > > Debbie > > > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf > Of Mark Davis ? > > > Sent: 07 July 2011 15:43 > To: Mykyta Yevstifeyev > Cc: Pete Resnick; ltru@ietf.org > > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext > > > > > Thanks for the feedback. We can make those corrections. > > > > > > One question. The primary reason that we chose to use a BCP was > primarily because it provided a stable reference; the underlying RFCs > can (and have) changed while "BCP47" has remained the same. Listing > the current RFCs somewhat undercuts that. Note: if that is the > practice we should do it, but it seems odd. > > > > > > Mark > > > — Il meglio è l’inimico del bene — > > On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 20:55, Mykyta Yevstifeyev <evnikita2@gmail.com> > wrote: > > Hello, > > I've identified the following issue in the draft. > > Section 2.2 says: > > > > The subtags in the 't' extension are of the following form: > > +--------+-------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Label | ABNF | Comment | > > +--------+-------------------------+----------------------------+ > | t_ext= | "t" | Extension | > | | ("-" lang *("-" field) | Source + optional field(s) | > | | / 1*("-" field)) | Field(s) only (no source) | > | lang= | language | [BCP47], with restrictions | > | | ["-" script] | | > | | ["-" region] | | > | | *("-" variant) | | > | field= | sep 1*("-" 3*8alphanum) | With restrictions | > | sep= | 1ALPHA 1DIGIT | Subtag separators | > +--------+-------------------------+----------------------------+ > > > I should note that, first of all, reference to RFC 5234 is missing; > moreover, and this is more important, making the ABNF definition in > the form of table makes such definition an invalid one, in terms of > RFC 5234. Also, there are a number of ABNF nits here. So, please > consider changing this to: > > > > The subtags in the 't' extension are of the following form, defined > using ABNF [RFC5234] in <t-ext> rule: > > t-ext = "t" ("-" lang *("-" field) / 1*("-" field)) > lang = langtag > field = sep 1*("-" 3*8alphanum) > sep = ALPHA DIGIT > alphanum = ALPHA / DIGIT > > where <langta> rule is specified in BCP 47 [BCP47], <ALPHA> and <DIGIT> > rules - in RFC 5234 [RFC5234]. > > Also, the minors comments on references. Reference to BCP 47 should > include both references to RFC 5646 and RFC 4647, like: > > [BCP47] Phillips, A. and M. Davis, "Matching of Language Tags", > BCP 47, RFC 4647, September 2006. > > Phillips, A., Ed., and M. Davis, Ed., "Tags for Identifying > Languages", BCP 47, RFC 5646, September 2009. > > ...and, referencing UTS 35 you shouldn't reference specific parts of > the document; this should be done in the text. Finally, I don't see > where [US-ASCII] is used in the text. > > Thanks, > Mykyta Yevstifeyev > > > > 07.07.2011 2:49, Pete Resnick wrote: > > Most of the people on the ietf-languages list are probably on the > ltru@ietf.org list as well, but I wanted to confirm that everyone got > a chance to review this before it proceeded to the IESG. Please have a > look at the ltru archive > <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/maillist.html> and > send any comments to the ltru@ietf.org list since that's where > discussion seems to be taking place. > > Thanks. > > pr > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > > > > > >
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mykyta Yevstifeyev
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mykyta Yevstifeyev
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Peter Constable
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Phillips, Addison
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Pete Resnick
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Pete Resnick
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mykyta Yevstifeyev
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Roozbeh Pournader
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Roozbeh Pournader
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Roozbeh Pournader
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Phillips, Addison
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext John Cowan
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Kent Karlsson
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext doug
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Peter Constable
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Peter Constable
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Broome, Karen
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Phillips, Addison
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Kent Karlsson
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Phillips, Addison
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Phillips, Addison
- [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mykyta Yevstifeyev
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Felix Sasaki
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mykyta Yevstifeyev
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Jukka K. Korpela
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Randy Presuhn
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext CE Whitehead
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Phillips, Addison
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext CE Whitehead
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext CE Whitehead
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Avram Lyon
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Gordon P. Hemsley
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext yoshito_umaoka
- [Ltru] Fw: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext yoshito_umaoka
- Re: [Ltru] Fw: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕