[Ltru] John Cowan throws in the towel on extlangs
John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> Thu, 29 November 2007 14:39 UTC
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Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:39:20 -0500
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Subject: [Ltru] John Cowan throws in the towel on extlangs
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After yesterday's telcon, it became clear to me that we had no movement toward reconciling the extlang-yes and the extlang-no factions, and that if we were ever to make progress, someone would have to concede. That turns out to be me. No one else has been actually defending the use of extlangs, and several people are either mildly or strongly against them, so all I am doing now is blocking consensus to no purpose. Therefore, I have reluctantly ceased to block it. The strongest argument against extlang tags is that our simple remove-from-right lookup algorithm ends up losing too much information. If you ask for "zh-yue-Hant", and there are no Cantonese resources, then by the time you have truncated the tag to just "zh" you have forgotten that Traditional Han script was required. In order to prevent it, we would have to change 4647 to specify a sequence like zh-yue-Hant > zh-yue > zh-Hant > zh, where the extlang tag is treated magically; in essence, stripping it restores all other tags. That would be fine, except that no one actually does it or is likely to for some time to come. Everything else is more or less symmetrical. For example, almost all content tagged 'zh' is in fact Mandarin, as an uncontroversial consequence of the fact that almost all tagged content is written, and almost all written Chinese is in fact Mandarin. There will be a problem in getting good matches if people use the new 'cmn' subtag, as naive matchers will not know its relationship to 'zh', but no worse than the problems shown above for Cantonese. In practical terms, this means that (unless someone else wants to take up the cause on the LTRU mailing list and see Bonnie Prince Charlie come into his own again) that we will allow all 639-3 code elements to be language subtags, and deprecate all the grandfathered forms like "zh-yue" (Cantonese) in favor of just 'yue'. Similarly, the currently redundant sign languages like "sgn-US" will be deprecated in favor of 'ase' and friends. The existing language tags representing macrolanguages of course remain intact. IMO we should strongly consider adding a new informative (and mutable) "Fallback" header in the registry which will inform people about problematic cases like "cmn" and "arb" (Standard Arabic), instructing them which language subtag to fall back to in cases of match failure. These will have to be cherry-picked, like Suppress-Script, but Peter Constable has estimated that there are no more than 15 such cases actually in wide use. For some macrolanguages, there is no dominant variety, and no special consideration is as yet required; if new dominant varieties come to exist in future, new Fallback headers can be added. RFC 4647bis can then be revised to explain how this header MAY be used to enhance matching. -- Mark Twain on Cecil Rhodes: John Cowan I admire him, I freely admit it, http://www.ccil.org/~cowan and when his time comes I shall cowan@ccil.org buy a piece of the rope for a keepsake. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
- [Ltru] John Cowan throws in the towel on extlangs John Cowan
- [Ltru] Fallback vs. Macrolanguage? (was: John Cow… Addison Phillips
- RE: [Ltru] Fallback vs. Macrolanguage? (was: John… Don Osborn
- [Ltru] Re: John Cowan throws in the towel on extl… John Cowan
- RE: [Ltru] John Cowan throws in the towel on extl… Peter Constable
- RE: [Ltru] John Cowan throws in the towel on extl… Don Osborn
- Re: [Ltru] John Cowan throws in the towel on extl… John Cowan
- Re: [Ltru] John Cowan throws in the towel on extl… Addison Phillips
- [Ltru] Re: Fallback vs. Macrolanguage? (was: John… John Cowan
- [Ltru] Re: John Cowan throws in the towel on extl… Doug Ewell
- [Ltru] Re: John Cowan throws in the towel on extl… Doug Ewell
- RE: [Ltru] John Cowan throws in the towel on extl… Peter Constable
- RE: [Ltru] John Cowan throws in the towel on extl… Karen_Broome
- Re: [Ltru] John Cowan throws in the towel on extl… John Cowan
- [Ltru] Re: John Cowan throws in the towel on extl… Frank Ellermann
- [Ltru] Re: John Cowan throws in the towel on extl… Doug Ewell
- [Ltru] Re: Language tags in the future version of… Doug Ewell
- [Ltru] RFC 1591 (was: Re: draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis… Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ltru] Re: John Cowan throws in the towel on … Addison Phillips
- RE: [Ltru] Re: John Cowan throws in the towel on … Peter Constable
- RE: [Ltru] Re: Language tags in the future versio… Peter Constable
- [Ltru] Re: John Cowan throws in the towel on extl… Doug Ewell
- [Ltru] Re: Language tags in the future version of… Frank Ellermann
- [Ltru] Re: John Cowan throws in the towel on extl… Frank Ellermann
- Re: [Ltru] Re: John Cowan throws in the towel on … Addison Phillips
- [Ltru] Re: RFC 1591 Frank Ellermann
- [Ltru] Re: Re: John Cowan throws in the towel on … Frank Ellermann
- Re: [Ltru] RFC 1591 (was: Re: draft-ietf-ltru-464… John Cowan
- [Ltru] Re: John Cowan throws in the towel on extl… Doug Ewell
- RE: [Ltru] RFC 1591 (was: Re: draft-ietf-ltru-464… Debbie Garside
- [Ltru] Re: John Cowan throws in the towel on extl… John Cowan
- Re: [Ltru] Re: John Cowan throws in the towel on … Karen_Broome
- Re: [Ltru] Re: John Cowan throws in the towel on … John Cowan
- RE: [Ltru] Re: John Cowan throws in the towel on … Peter Constable