RE: [Ltru] Punjabi

[Peter Constable <[e-mail]>]

Don:

Please don’t rush to assume that this situation is similar to the kinds of situations you encounter in Africa with language networks that span borders – it’s not clear to me, at least, that this is a comparable situation. All the information I’ve seen (though by no means to I think I have a good understanding at this point) suggests that “Panjabi” spoken in India is significantly different from “Panjabi” spoken in Pakistan. (Of course, the script used is different.) If there is a lot of difference, then a broader conceptualization that encompasses both is probably *not* appropriate for locale data in software implementations.

Of course, the challenge here is the use of a common name. Note that the sharing of a name does not necessarily imply a common language; it may have more to do with ethnic, cultural or regional ties than with language, as is true in the case of “Kachin”. Again, I don’t know what is actually the case for “Panjabi”.

(Btw, I wouldn’t object if the governments of Pakistan or India dictated that the standard English spelling should be specifically “Panjabi” or specifically “Punjabi”.)


Peter

________________________________
From: Don Osborn [mailto:[e-mail]]
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 1:31 AM
To: 'Sarmad Hussain, Dr.'; 'Mark Davis'; 'LTRU Working Group'; [e-mail]; [e-mail]
Cc: 'Nayyara Karamat'; 'Abbas Malik'
Subject: RE: [Ltru] Punjabi

Not sure if this will have gone out to the list  given that Sarmad is not on LTRU (unless he just subscribed). So I’ll pass it on with one thought. His question about the intended use is one I also tend to ask – if you’re classifying text, that might imply one kind of categorization of the language(s); but if you’re compiling a locale for localizing software, then maybe a different and broader (or “macro”) conceptualization is appropriate. In each case, at least for the languages I’m more familiar with, you might reasonably come up with a different answer and use of language coding.

Don



From: Sarmad Hussain, Dr. [mailto:[e-mail]]
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 2:57 AM
To: Don Osborn; 'Mark Davis'; 'LTRU Working Group'; [e-mail]; [e-mail]
Cc: Abbas Malik; Nayyara Karamat
Subject: RE: [Ltru] Punjabi

There are many more dialects of Punjabi, depending on the region within Punjab in Pakistan.  What is spoken in Sargodha is much different from what is spoken in Lahore, etc.  However, most agree that they are speaking Punjabi.  There is some difference in vocabulary but real difference is in the pronunciation.  If locale is to be sensitive to these dimensions of a language, then multiple codes need to be put in.  However, if locale is just identifying the language not the dialect (sub-language? as in some cases the dialects may not be mutually understandable), then a singular locale would do.  I am not sure what level locale is designed to serve?  Could anybody else further elaborate on this?  I am cc:ing a couple of other people, in case they want to comment.

We had looked at the written version of Punjabi in Pakistan (also called Shahmukhi) for standardization purposes, and there seems to be less variety at this level.

Regards,
Sarmad

________________________________
From: Don Osborn [mailto:[e-mail]]
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 12:55 AM
To: 'Mark Davis'; 'LTRU Working Group'; [e-mail]; [e-mail]
Cc: Sarmad Hussain, Dr.
Subject: RE: [Ltru] Punjabi

Hi Mark. An addendum to your question would be what they write. Might there be a pa-PK written standard? I don’t know, just asking.

I will take the liberty of cc’ing the question to Dr. Sarmad Hussein of the National University of Computer and Emerging Sciences in Lahore, who also heads the PAN L10n project in Asia ( http://www.panl10n.net ), in case he has any thoughts.

Don


From: Mark Davis [mailto:[e-mail]]
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 3:12 PM
To: LTRU Working Group; [e-mail]; [e-mail]
Subject: [Ltru] Punjabi

I have a question about Punjabi. ISO 639-2 gives "pan" as Punjabi. ISO 639-3 divides Punjabi into three separate codes:

pmu    Mirpur Panjabi
pnb    Western Panjabi
pan    Panjabi // called Eastern Panjabi in the Ethnologue.

It looks from this that according to ISO 639-3, there is no macro language for Panjabi; Pakistanis don't speak "pan" (= "pa"), even as a macro language they speak something else. So a language pa-PK (or locale pa_PK) is probably a mistake. Is this a fair statement?

--
Mark

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