Re: [Ltru] [Fwd: Re: [TC46-L] [OLD-IRISH-L] An official language code for Primitive Irish]

Marion Gunn <> Wed, 20 January 2010 13:07 UTC

Return-Path: <>
Received: from localhost (localhost []) by (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4D063A6902 for <>; Wed, 20 Jan 2010 05:07:36 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.598
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001]
Received: from ([]) by localhost ( []) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FAgDPBGXIHLf for <>; Wed, 20 Jan 2010 05:07:34 -0800 (PST)
Received: from ( []) by (Postfix) with SMTP id DE5C43A67AD for <>; Wed, 20 Jan 2010 05:07:33 -0800 (PST)
Received: (qmail 93323 messnum 12163534 invoked from network[]); 20 Jan 2010 13:07:26 -0000
Received: from (HELO Marion-Gunns-Computer.local) ( by (qp 93323) with SMTP; 20 Jan 2010 13:07:26 -0000
Message-ID: <>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 13:07:25 +0000
From: Marion Gunn <>
User-Agent: Thunderbird (Macintosh/20090812)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: "" <>, "" <>, 'LTRU Working Group' <>, Ian Cowan <>, Gay Moran <>, Scholars and students of Old Irish <OLD-IRISH-L@LISTSERV.HEANET.IE>,
References: <> <>
In-Reply-To: <>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------020808080706000708050601"
X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 11:26:05 -0800
Subject: Re: [Ltru] [Fwd: Re: [TC46-L] [OLD-IRISH-L] An official language code for Primitive Irish]
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list <>
List-Unsubscribe: <>, <>
List-Archive: <>
List-Post: <>
List-Help: <>
List-Subscribe: <>, <>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 13:07:36 -0000

Scríobh Peter Constable:
> ... I think procedural issues would more likely be about demonstrating 
> that the user / expert community recognizes a conventional distinction 
> between the different varieties and that there is reasonable consensus 
> as to what the pertinent historical distinctions in the evolution of 
> Irish are.
> Cheers
> Peter

That, I believe, can be demonstrated, as indicated below, only to fill 
in the request form. NSAI represents our user community (cc: list 
OLD-IRISH-L, where the proposal was made and expert opinion invited).

From: Marion Gunn <>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 15:43:21 +0000

As Ireland's (NSAI) sole representative in ISO/TC 37 for many years 
during the 1990s and similarly Head of Ireland's (NSAI) ISO/TC 46 
delegation until 2001, I would foresee few procedural difficulties, if 
any in registering the proposed new language code in ISO-639-3, with the 
assistance of Ian Cowan and Gay Moran of NSAI and Fidelma Ní 
Gallchobhair of the Coiste Téarmaíochta (my successor in ISO/TC 37, 
which now has a larger delegation than then, including Donla Uí 
Bhraonáin of DCU). This proposal was not my idea, in fact, it would 
never have occurred to me, but I would not see any harm in registering 
such a tag (rather the reverse).

Scríobh ejp10:
Yes - this is a good idea, and this is a good group to do this. The 
ISO-639-3 list is meant to be more linguistically accurate than the 
older ISO-639 two-letter list, so it's good to get on it. There may be 
some procedural issues, but I would assume the code will be accepted 
because the language is so distinct from Old Irish.

I would be happy to add my name to any list and provide any kind of 
assistance from a standards perspective, although I should advise 
everyone that I am really a Brythonic person at heart. :)


On Jan 19, 2010, at 3:00 AM, OLD-IRISH-L automatic digest system wrote:

From: Caoimhin O Donnaile <caoimhin@SMO.UHI.AC.UK>
Date: January 18, 2010 4:25:33 PM EST
Subject: An official language code for Primitive Irish

When I put David Stifter's translation to Primitive Irish (Ogam Irish /
Ancient Irish) of the three monks story up on the Internet:

I had to invent a temporary code "x-xog" for the language, because it seems
that although there are official codes for:

 gv   Modern Manx
 gd   Modern Scottish Gaelic
 ga   Modern Irish
 ghc  Hiberno-Scottish Gaelic (12th-17th centuries)
 mga  Middle Irish
 sga  Old Irish

 xtg  Transalpine Gaulish
 xcg  Cisalpine Gaulish
 xce  Celtiberian

as can be seen from the lists at:

there is as yet no offical code for Primitive Irish.  I have been 
talking to
David and his view is that the linguistic step from Primitive Irish (at the
middle of its chronological range) to Old Irish is at least as big as the
step from Old Irish to Middle Irish, so that it would indeed be appropriate
to give Primitive Irish a separate language code.  The best code we could
find which is still free is "pgl".  If we proceed with a request, the next
step would be for us to fill in the request form at:

I was wondering first, though, whether list members might have any 
Does this seem like a good idea?, a bad idea?, any other thoughs?