RE: [Ltru] Extended language tags (long reply)

[Peter Constable <[e-mail]>]

[cc to JAC]

The documentation problem is something that ISO 639 RAs potentially can and probably should address so that it's clear to implementers that "vls" is indeed the identifier for the language variety typically meant by the appellation "Flemish".

Note, though, that there's no way to escape the issue Ethnologue is calling out: that "Flemish" and "Vlaams" are sometimes used to refer to the variety usually called (in English) Dutch. If someone wants to find the ID for "Flemish", they must first make sure they know what language variety it is they are really dealing with. That is not a problem that ISO 639 can deal with.

Also, ISO 639 cannot really deal with the UI issue. Languages can have many names. Some names may go in or out of vogue; some names may be strongly preferred in some places and simultaneously strongly disparaged in other places. It is not the role of the ISO 639 JAC or the RAs to give out recommendations as to what names should be exposed to users in products.

Finally, wrt our email exchange in 2005, I think I may have expressed things in a way that was misunderstood. I believe this is the bit in question:

<quote>
E.g. Karen mentioned "nld-BE" (3066 would use require nd-BE) for Flemish, though 639-3 will provide "vls". I expect a successor to RFC 3066 will consider both valid, though we can't force people to use "vls" if they happen to come up with "nd-BE".
</quote>

I'm pretty sure I did not mean to imply by these comments that I considered "vls" appropriate for Dutch spoken in the Flemish region. I believe I thought we were discussing Flemish aka Vlaams.



Peter


> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 1:59 PM
> To: John Cowan
> Cc: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Extended language tags (long reply)
>
> Without additional disambiguation, this is very confusing to just about
> anyone with a language list that includes Flemish. It is especially
> confusing to me as the editor of ISO 639-3 previously indicated to me
> and
> the MPAA that this was indeed the tag for the Flemish dialect of Dutch.
> Granted, 639-3 was in DIS status at that point. After ISO 639-3 was
> published, I recommended the "vls" tag for a non-RFC-4646 usage than
> spanned efforts of several studios.
>
> Could we make a request for just a bit more disambiguation in the
> Ethnologue entry?
>
> This is text I received in a private e-mail about the tag when I
> presented
> a list of film languages a couple years back and asked for equivalents
> in
> ISO 639-3. I specifically noted the need to distinguish the Flemish
> dialect of Dutch from the Netherlands variant:
>
> "ISO 639-3 does have an entry for "Flemish", though it happens to use
> the
> autonym "Vlaams" for the reference name. That is, on the one hand, a
> documentation problem and, on the other, a UI problem: a developer
> needs
> to be able to discover that the entry "vls, 'Vlaams'" is for Flemish,
> and
> then they need to determine the UI string they should present to users
> that will allow *them* to find the correct item in a list.
>
> Regards,
>
> Karen Broome
>
>
>
>
>
> John Cowan <[e-mail]>
> 10/10/2007 12:31 PM
>
> To
> [e-mail]
> cc
> "[e-mail]" <[e-mail]>
> Subject
> Re: [Ltru] Extended language tags (long reply)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [e-mail] scripsit:
> > I wrote:
> >
> > (I still don't know whether "vls"
> > (639-3) falls back to "nld/dut" in 639-2, though Flemish is cited as
> a
> > synonym for Vlaams in 639-3.)
>
> It does not.
>
> > Sorry, I meant to say that "Flemish" is cited as a synonym on
> > Ethnologue.com.
>
> That is to say, the name "Flemish" has been used for both vls and
> the Belgian version of nl.
>
> --
> Mark Twain on Cecil Rhodes:                    John Cowan
> I admire him, I freely admit it,
> http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
> and when his time comes I shall                [e-mail]
> buy a piece of the rope for a keepsake.
>
>
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