Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang
John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> Tue, 04 September 2007 03:46 UTC
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Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 23:46:47 -0400
To: Addison Phillips <addison@yahoo-inc.com>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang
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Addison Phillips scripsit: > Thus, if I were to support extlang, it would be based solely on John > Cowan's argument that we need extlang to prevent a "retagging crisis" > for languages formerly enclosed by a macrolanguage. Indeed, I think this is the most important point. RFCs come and go, but tagging decisions ought not to have to be revisited. We have already obsoleted some IETF or semi-IETF tags in favor of ISO ones, but there's no getting away from that. > 2. Randy suggested (a long while ago now) that cherry-picking from the > macrolanguage list would be a bad idea. Yet tag stability provisions > prevent us from taking the list wholesale. Three macrolanguages with seven encompassed languages, all accounted for by the same pre-existing principle (stability), hardly counts as cherry-picking. > And I have some concern that the macrolanguage "collections" (if you'll > pardon this inaccurate term) have yet to be thoroughly tested. They > may not be stable or suitable in the short-to-medium term. This is > not a critique of ISO 639-3's work here. It is merely a note of caution. I'm not sure what counts as testing in this case. Can you explain further? > If I were to support doing extlangs, it would consider each > macrolanguage separately, as a one-time-event, and, again, solely as a > compatibility item. That's pretty much what SIL (read Peter C) actually did. > Note that we also face our own exception--I assume future sign languages > would be treated as extlangs for compatibility reasons. Note that sign > languages are NOT macrolanguages in the first place--they are already > exceptional. I would favor eliminating this use of extlang too. That's a point I hadn't considered. New sign languages do arise. > ... but I feel that we're doing a disservice to the various languages > involved by making them extlangs. Shouldn't Cantonese, Wu, or Hakka be > treated fully as languages? The fact is that people don't: they are *not* treated fully as languages except by linguists and people strongly influenced by them. > Users can still use the macrolanguage tag instead (I doubt we'll see > much 'cmn-*' when 'zh-*' is available). Exactly. People will continue to use "zh", but those who want to be more explicit can use "zh-cmn", just as people who want to be explicit about script can use "zh-Hans". With extlangs, there is a soft choice between "zh" and "zh-cmn" rather than a hard choice between "zh" and "cmn". -- Where the wombat has walked, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> it will inevitably walk again. http://www.ccil.org/~cowan _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
- [Ltru] Re: IANA, UTF-8 and the Language Subtag Re… Frank Ellermann
- [Ltru] Re: extlang Doug Ewell
- [Ltru] Re: IANA, UTF-8 and the Language Subtag Re… Doug Ewell
- [Ltru] Re: extlang Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Gerard Meijssen
- [Ltru] Re: extlang Doug Ewell
- RE: [Ltru] Re: extlang Peter Constable
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang John Cowan
- Re: [Ltru] Re: IANA, UTF-8 and the Language Subta… David Conrad
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Karen_Broome
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang John Cowan
- Re: [Ltru] Re: IANA, UTF-8 and the Language Subta… Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Doug Ewell
- [Ltru] Re: extlang Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang John Cowan
- [Ltru] Numerical region subtags (RE: extlang) Don Osborn
- Re: [Ltru] Numerical region subtags (RE: extlang) Addison Phillips
- [Ltru] Re: Numerical region subtags (RE: extlang) Doug Ewell
- [Ltru] RE: Numerical region subtags (RE: extlang) Don Osborn
- [Ltru] Re: extlang Doug Ewell
- [Ltru] Re: extlang Doug Ewell
- [Ltru] Re: extlang Doug Ewell
- [Ltru] Re: extlang Doug Ewell
- [Ltru] Re: extlang Doug Ewell
- [Ltru] extlang Mark Davis
- Re: [Ltru] extlang Randy Presuhn
- [Ltru] Re: extlang John Cowan
- [Ltru] Re: extlang Mark Davis
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Martin Duerst
- Re: [Ltru] extlang Martin Duerst
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Martin Duerst
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Karen_Broome
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Randy Presuhn
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang John Cowan
- RE: [Ltru] Re: extlang Peter Constable
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Mark Davis
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Marion Gunn
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Marion Gunn
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Addison Phillips
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Marion Gunn
- [Ltru] Use of the string "microlangauges" Randy Presuhn
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Karen_Broome
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang John Cowan
- RE: [Ltru] Re: extlang Peter Constable
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Mark Davis
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Doug Ewell
- [Ltru] Re: extlang Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Marion Gunn
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang John Cowan
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang GerardM
- [Ltru] Re: extlang Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang John Cowan
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang John Cowan
- RE: [Ltru] Re: extlang Peter Constable
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Addison Phillips
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang John Cowan
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ltru] Re: extlang Marion Gunn
- [Ltru] Availability of ISO documents (Was: extlang Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [Ltru] Availability of ISO documents (Was: ex… John Cowan
- [Ltru] Re: Availability of ISO documents (Was: ex… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- [Ltru] Re: Availability of ISO documents (Was: ex… Marion Gunn