Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext
"Phillips, Addison" <addison@lab126.com> Sun, 10 July 2011 15:50 UTC
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From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@lab126.com>
To: Debbie Garside <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk>, "'Broome, Karen'" <Karen.Broome@am.sony.com>, "'Steven R. Loomis'" <srl@icu-project.org>
Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2011 08:50:30 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext
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Cc: 'Pete Resnick' <presnick@qualcomm.com>, 'LTRU Working Group' <ltru@ietf.org>, 'CLDR list' <cldr@unicode.org>, 'Roozbeh Pournader' <roozbeh@htpassport.com>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext
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The operative sentence in the paragraph you quote is the first one: > IANA will maintain a registry of allocated single-character > (singleton) subtags. That is, the paragraph has to do with a registry containing a list of the extensions and where to find them. The actual extensions are located somewhere else. Addison > -----Original Message----- > From: Debbie Garside [mailto:debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk] > Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 8:18 AM > To: 'Debbie Garside'; Phillips, Addison; 'Broome, Karen'; 'Steven R. Loomis' > Cc: 'Pete Resnick'; 'Roozbeh Pournader'; 'CLDR list'; 'LTRU Working Group' > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext > > Can I just clarify... > > I am reading BCP47 with regard to the rules for sending IANA info on extension > subtags. The wording is not clear. Does the paragraph (below) mean that > every time there is a new part to an extension mechanism that the maintaining > authority sends this to IANA? Or does it mean that just the details of (in the > case) the -t singleton are sent to IANA? > > Debbie > > -----Original Message----- > From: cldr-bounce@unicode.org [mailto:cldr-bounce@unicode.org] On Behalf > Of Debbie Garside > Sent: 10 July 2011 15:48 > To: 'Phillips, Addison'; 'Broome, Karen'; 'Steven R. Loomis' > Cc: 'Pete Resnick'; 'Roozbeh Pournader'; 'CLDR list'; 'LTRU Working Group' > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext > > Hi Addison > > I'm not sure that I see where the "overhead" is. Can you elaborate? > > BCP47 states: > > IANA will maintain a registry of allocated single-character > (singleton) subtags. This registry MUST use the record-jar format > described by the ABNF in Section 3.1.1. Upon publication of an > extension as an RFC, the maintaining authority defined in the RFC > MUST forward this registration form to <iesg@ietf.org>, who MUST > forward the request to <iana@iana.org>. The maintaining authority of > the extension MUST maintain the accuracy of the record by sending an > updated full copy of the record to <iana@iana.org> with the subject > line "LANGUAGE TAG EXTENSION UPDATE" whenever content changes. Only > the 'Comments', 'Contact_Email', 'Mailing_List', and 'URL' fields MAY > be modified in these updates. > > This IMHO is the overhead. Given that we already have ietf-languages as a > discussion list, and all the rules and regulations for application and registration > of subtags, why create another "private" process? CLDR-TC would have to > create transparent rules and regs anyway. > > Keeping everything in one place/list has got to be easier for the end user. I still > cannot see any real reason for taking this out of IETF other than BCP47 allows > for it. > > I can see the proposed -t extension mechanism being widely used by a number > of organisations, unlike the -u extension which was specifically designed for > integrating CLDR data within a subtag. I don't think we can compare the two > processes. > > Best wishes > > Debbie > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@lab126.com] > Sent: 10 July 2011 02:37 > To: Broome, Karen; Debbie Garside; 'Steven R. Loomis' > Cc: 'Pete Resnick'; 'Roozbeh Pournader'; 'CLDR list'; 'LTRU Working Group' > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext > > > I tend to agree with Debbie on this. I'm not sure this is best handled > > by an external, if tightly coupled, organization. This seems to be a > > useful extension to the main body of work so it seems like it should be > handled in the same way. > > There is a fundamental problem with that, though. > > The extension mechanism can be used to create a registry under the auspices > of the IETF that is managed by IANA using the ietf-languages list. That requires > Internet-Draft(s) be created laying out the process, rules, format, structure, etc. > etc. for the registry. We know from experience how much effort is required to > complete such work. Note that such an extension would still be a separate > registry and would be managed separately (even if it were to use the same > mail list, for example). > > The extension mechanism also can be used (indeed, given the foregoing, is > optimized for use) by standards bodies or other organizations that maintain or > are willing to create and maintain language-tag-extending standards or > registries. In this case, one such body (the CLDR-TC of the Unicode Consortium) > has requested under the BCP 47 rules that the IESG to assign it one of the 34 > remaining singletons for an extension that they will maintain. > > CLDR-TC is already the maintainer of one language tag extension, so it > probably meets at least meet a minimal bar for fitness as such. Given the > overhead for creating a different process, isn't it reasonable to use the CLDR > process and Unicode's willingness to maintain the registry for this purpose? If > there are concerns about the openness of the process, etc., I believe they can > be addressed in the Internet-Draft. > > A separate question is whether the current proposal is adequate/appropriate > for the task, including such stuff as the creation of a single registry. The other > authors are open to discussing these things and making changes. Is that > objectionable as an approach? > > Addison > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf > > Of Broome, Karen > > Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2011 5:42 PM > > To: Debbie Garside; 'Steven R. Loomis' > > Cc: 'Pete Resnick'; 'Roozbeh Pournader'; 'CLDR list'; 'LTRU Working Group' > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext > > > > I tend to agree with Debbie on this. I'm not sure this is best handled > > by an external, if tightly coupled, organization. This seems to be a > > useful extension to the main body of work so it seems like it should be > handled in the same way. > > > > Regards, > > > > Karen Broome > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf > > Of Debbie Garside > > Sent: Friday, July 08, 2011 6:02 PM > > To: 'Steven R. Loomis' > > Cc: 'LTRU Working Group'; 'CLDR list'; 'Pete Resnick'; 'Roozbeh Pournader' > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext > > > > Hi Steven > > > > Thanks. I really am not trying to criticise CLDR. I understand > > (somewhat) the problems and the needs of industry. As already > > mentioned, I am a supporter of both Unicode and CLDR. I will ask my > > colleague to speak with you about his concerns. > > > > My concern here on IETF-LTRU is that a process is being taken out of > > IETF unnecessarily IMHO - at least from the responses received so far, > > I can see no added value in CLDR functioning as the Registrar for -t > extensions. > > > > Best wishes > > > > Debbie > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cldr-bounce@unicode.org [mailto:cldr-bounce@unicode.org] On > > Behalf Of Steven R. Loomis > > Sent: 08 July 2011 02:28 > > To: Debbie Garside > > Cc: 'Roozbeh Pournader'; 'Mark Davis ☕'; 'Mykyta Yevstifeyev'; 'Pete > > Resnick'; 'LTRU Working Group'; 'CLDR list' > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext > > > > Debbie, > > > > I think that the concern about the data dump was due to some > > misunderstandings regarding the CLDR process. As the one who developed > > and manages major parts of the CLDR tooling (along with many others), > > I can say that the human users involved with the "data dump" (which > > was another misconception, that it was merely a one-way "dump") were > > very involved with the CLDR forum process. > > > > We are hard at work to make the vetting process easier to use for everyone. > > The sheer number of increased users and data the last time around, > > brought to the forefront stability and performance issues that were > > still unresolved. One of the issues is the amount of data that is in a > > CLDR locale can be daunting, it would be in the tens of thousands of > > data items. We've already introduced a system ('coverage') that lets > > the user reduce what is shown normally to just critical items. This > > system is already slated to be improved. As well, we have some faster > hardware to run the server on that we will be testing out soon. > > > > I realize that you are relaying a concern from a third party, but I > > would invite your colleague to discuss the specific concerns with us if they > had not already. > > One of the very exciting parts, for me, of this process is that anyone > > regardless of other 'status' can (and does) sign up and contribute data, and > has a voice. > > Previous to the launch of the CLDR project about eight years ago, this > > locale data existed in multiple organization's repositories, where it > > would take a bug report to cause any change. Then I (and others in > > different companies, > > independently) would have to look at the bug report and decide when > > and if to spend time updating that data. Now there is a process for > > sorting out the data, and also a common repository and format for many > > projects (both open-source and commercial) to pick up and use. It's not a > perfect process, but it's a process. > > > > Regards, > > > > Steven > > > > > > > > On Thu, 7 Jul 2011 23:13:19 +0100 > > "Debbie Garside" <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk> wrote: > > > > > I will say just say a couple of things on this and then will let it > > > go. I really am not about attacking either Unicode or CLDR as I > > > believe I am still a member (and have been since they last printed a > > > hard copy - whenever that was). > > > > > > I believe that CLDR has lost experts due to a data dump from Google > > > that overwrote their work. I had a face to face conversation with a > > > colleague involved whilst in Korea three weeks ago. > > > > > > Saying that all the core people are still there after 20 years does > > > not address the issue of paying for votes - they may have been > > > paying for 20 years. In any case, I believe CLDR was created some 7 > > > years ago (or maybe 8). > > > > > > One could ask, how many people are on the proposed CLDR committee > > > and, of these, how many are not attached to paying organisations? > > > > > > Best wishes > > > > > > Debbie > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cldr-bounce@unicode.org [mailto:cldr-bounce@unicode.org] On > > > Behalf Of Roozbeh Pournader Sent: 07 July 2011 22:58 > > > To: Debbie Garside > > > Cc: 'Mark Davis ☕'; 'Mykyta Yevstifeyev'; 'Pete Resnick'; 'LTRU > > > Working Group'; 'CLDR list' Subject: RE: [Ltru] Fwd: > > > draft-davis-t-langtag-ext > > > > > > On Thu, 2011-07-07 at 22:13 +0100, Debbie Garside wrote: > > > > > > > I have heard from a colleague who has been instrumental in adding > > > > 100 locales to CLDR that many volunteers are disillusioned and > > > > have stopped contributing. > > > > > > That's not because of committee voting. Maintaining and updating the > > > data in CLDR locales uses a vetting procedure vastly different from > > > the CLDR commitee itself. And I have seen the feedback from experts > > > with limited voting right incorporated not only in CLDR data, but > > > also in updates to the CLDR data vetting process. From what I've > > > seen, most volunteer experts objections has been about not being > > > able to keep up with the pace of data that comes from some full members. > > > So, it's mostly been volunteer contributors (myself included) trying > > > to slow down the process, instead of voting members. So contrary to > > > what you think, it's the organizational and data support from the > > > voting members that makes sure the process is fast enough. Not only > > > it doesn't put development back for years, it's usually volunteer > > > contributors who want the process slowed down so they can catch up. > > > > > > Again, all of that is about "locale data", which is really very > > > large amount of data. I don't think we can use that experience to > > > see how the "t" extension will be maintained. A better comparison is > > > how the Unicode Consortium and the CLDR committee has been > > > maintaining the already-registered "u" extension. Do you know > > > anybody who has had a problem with that? > > > > > > > I would hate for IETF to find that they agree to "outsource" this > > > > work and then find that their volunteer experts disappear. > > > > > > Well, Unicode has been here for more than two decades, and I have > > > yet to see expertise disappear from it. Not only that, but also > > > almost all the core people are still contributing. > > > > > > Roozbeh > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > > > >
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mykyta Yevstifeyev
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mykyta Yevstifeyev
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Peter Constable
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Phillips, Addison
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Pete Resnick
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Pete Resnick
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mykyta Yevstifeyev
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Roozbeh Pournader
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Roozbeh Pournader
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Roozbeh Pournader
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Phillips, Addison
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext John Cowan
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Kent Karlsson
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext doug
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Peter Constable
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Peter Constable
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Broome, Karen
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Phillips, Addison
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Kent Karlsson
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Debbie Garside
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Phillips, Addison
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Phillips, Addison
- [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mykyta Yevstifeyev
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Felix Sasaki
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mykyta Yevstifeyev
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Jukka K. Korpela
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Randy Presuhn
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] Fwd: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext CE Whitehead
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Phillips, Addison
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext CE Whitehead
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext CE Whitehead
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Avram Lyon
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Gordon P. Hemsley
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Ltru] draft-davis-t-langtag-ext yoshito_umaoka
- [Ltru] Fw: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext yoshito_umaoka
- Re: [Ltru] Fw: draft-davis-t-langtag-ext Mark Davis ☕