RE: [Ltru] "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)"

Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com> Sat, 08 December 2007 19:24 UTC

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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
To: Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org>, Doug Ewell <dewell@roadrunner.com>
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2007 11:24:35 -0800
Subject: RE: [Ltru] "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)"
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)"
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It is coincidental that an Altaic language spoken in China and an unrelated isolate language spoken in China both happen to have “Ainu” as their English name.

Peter

From: Mark Davis [mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org]
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 11:16 AM
To: Doug Ewell
Cc: LTRU Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)"

I have less of a problem with these, because the parentheticals with geographical names would probably be fairly clear to most people. And because the the 639-2 variant is the most common, I think either of the following would work.
...
Ainu
Ainu (China)
...

or

...
Ainu (Japan)
Ainu (China)
...

Peter, since Ainu is not a macrolanguage, I assume that there is no relationship between aib and ain; that it is just an accident that they have the same English name? (Is the same true for the other name collisions where one of them was in 639-2 and yet they are not under a macrolanguage? Or are those slips through the cracks?)

BTW, here is a list of all the names that are only distinguished by parentheticals in http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/iso-639-3_20071018.tab (don't worry about the UTF-8 munging -- I just forgot to tell Excel that it was UTF-8). At the end I list the unique parentheticals.
aib

I

L

Ainu

Ainu (China)

2

ain

I

L

Ainu

Ainu (Japan)

2

aja

I

L

Aja

Aja (Sudan)

2

ajg

I

L

Aja

Aja (Benin)

2

amm

I

L

Ama

Ama (Papua New Guinea)

2

nyi

I

L

Ama

Ama (Sudan)

2

rwm

I

L

Amba

Amba (Uganda)

2

utp

I

L

Amba

Amba (Solomon Islands)

2

asa

I

L

Asu

Asu (Tanzania)

2

aum

I

L

Asu

Asu (Nigeria)

2

ayq

I

L

Ayi

Ayi (Papua New Guinea)

2

ayx

I

L

Ayi

Ayi (China)

2

bau

I

L

Bada

Bada (Nigeria)

2

bhz

I

L

Bada

Bada (Indonesia)

2

bdh

I

L

Baka

Baka (Sudan)

2

bkc

I

L

Baka

Baka (Cameroon)

2

bcn

I

L

Bali

Bali (Nigeria)

2

bcp

I

L

Bali

Bali (Democratic Republic of Congo)

2

bas

I

L

Basa

Basa (Cameroon)

2

bzw

I

L

Basa

Basa (Nigeria)

2

btc

I

L

Bati

Bati (Cameroon)

2

bvt

I

L

Bati

Bati (Indonesia)

2

bey

I

L

Beli

Beli (Papua New Guinea)

2

blm

I

L

Beli

Beli (Sudan)

2

bem

I

L

Bemba

Bemba (Zambia)

2

bmy

I

L

Bemba

Bemba (Democratic Republic of Congo)

2

bez

I

L

Bena

Bena (Tanzania)

2

yun

I

L

Bena

Bena (Nigeria)

2

btb

I

L

Beti

Beti (Cameroon)

2

eot

I

L

Beti

Beti (Côte d'Ivoire)

2

bmn

I

E

Bina

Bina (Papua New Guinea)

2

byj

I

L

Bina

Bina (Nigeria)

2

bgl

I

L

Bo

Bo (Laos)

2

bpw

I

L

Bo

Bo (Papua New Guinea)

2

bzl

I

L

Boano

Boano (Sulawesi)

2

bzn

I

L

Boano

Boano (Maluku)

2

boy

I

L

Bodo

Bodo (Central African Republic)

2

brx

I

L

Bodo

Bodo (India)

2

bkp

I

L

Boko

Boko (Democratic Republic of Congo)

2

bqc

I

L

Boko

Boko (Benin)

2

bwu

I

L

Buli

Buli (Ghana)

2

bzq

I

L

Buli

Buli (Indonesia)

2

bjl

I

L

Bulu

Bulu (Papua New Guinea)

2

bum

I

L

Bulu

Bulu (Cameroon)

2

bqw

I

L

Buru

Buru (Nigeria)

2

mhs

I

L

Buru

Buru (Indonesia)

2

ddn

I

L

Dendi

Dendi (Benin)

2

deq

I

L

Dendi

Dendi (Central African Republic)

2

kbv

I

L

Dera

Dera (Indonesia)

2

kna

I

L

Dera

Dera (Nigeria)

2

dha

I

L

Dhanwar

Dhanwar (India)

2

dhw

I

L

Dhanwar

Dhanwar (Nepal)

2

dgo

I

L

Dogri

Dogri (individual language)

2

doi

M

L

Dogri

Dogri (macrolanguage)

2

env

I

L

Enwan

Enwan (Edu State)

2

enw

I

L

Enwan

Enwan (Akwa Ibom State)

2

etn

I

L

Eton

Eton (Vanuatu)

2

eto

I

L

Eton

Eton (Cameroon)

2

fak

I

L

Fang

Fang (Cameroon)

2

fan

I

L

Fang

Fang (Equatorial Guinea)

2

gba

M

L

Gbaya

Gbaya (Central African Republic)

2

krs

I

L

Gbaya

Gbaya (Sudan)

2

gim

I

L

Gimi

Gimi (Eastern Highlands)

2

gip

I

L

Gimi

Gimi (West New Britain)

2

gqn

I

E

Guana

Guana (Brazil)

2

gva

I

L

Guana

Guana (Paraguay)

2

glu

I

L

Gula

Gula (Chad)

2

kcm

I

L

Gula

Gula (Central African Republic)

2

isu

I

L

Isu

Isu (Menchum Division)

2

szv

I

L

Isu

Isu (Fako Division)

2

anq

I

L

Jarawa

Jarawa (India)

2

jar

I

L

Jarawa

Jarawa (Nigeria)

2

jim

I

L

Jimi

Jimi (Cameroon)

2

jmi

I

L

Jimi

Jimi (Nigeria)

2

kam

I

L

Kamba

Kamba (Kenya)

2

xba

I

E

Kamba

Kamba (Brazil)

2

kcu

I

L

Kami

Kami (Tanzania)

2

kmi

I

L

Kami

Kami (Nigeria)

2

kty

I

L

Kango

Kango (Bas-Uélé District)

2

kzy

I

L

Kango

Kango (Tshopo District)

2

kah

I

L

Kara

Kara (Central African Republic)

4

leu

I

L

Kara

Kara (Papua New Guinea)

4

reg

I

L

Kara

Kara (Tanzania)

4

zra

I

E

Kara

Kara (Korea)

4

kbn

I

L

Kare

Kare (Central African Republic)

2

kmf

I

L

Kare

Kare (Papua New Guinea)

2

arr

I

L

Karo

Karo (Brazil)

2

kxh

I

L

Karo

Karo (Ethiopia)

2

kcl

I

L

Kela

Kela (Papua New Guinea)

2

kel

I

L

Kela

Kela (Democratic Republic of Congo)

2

khy

I

L

Kele

Kele (Democratic Republic of Congo)

2

sbc

I

L

Kele

Kele (Papua New Guinea)

2

ktu

I

L

Kituba

Kituba (Democratic Republic of Congo)

2

mkw

I

L

Kituba

Kituba (Congo)

2

biw

I

L

Kol

Kol (Cameroon)

2

kol

I

L

Kol

Kol (Papua New Guinea)

2

bkm

I

L

Kom

Kom (Cameroon)

2

kmm

I

L

Kom

Kom (India)

2

kmw

I

L

Komo

Komo (Democratic Republic of Congo)

2

xom

I

L

Komo

Komo (Sudan)

2

knn

I

L

Konkani

Konkani (individual language)

2

kok

M

L

Konkani

Konkani (macrolanguage)

2

klk

I

L

Kono

Kono (Nigeria)

3

kno

I

L

Kono

Kono (Sierra Leone)

3

knu

I

L

Kono

Kono (Guinea)

3

kfo

I

L

Koro

Koro (Côte d'Ivoire)

3

krf

I

L

Koro

Koro (Vanuatu)

3

kxr

I

L

Koro

Koro (Papua New Guinea)

3

kfe

I

L

Kota

Kota (India)

2

koq

I

L

Kota

Kota (Gabon)

2

kvd

I

L

Kui

Kui (Indonesia)

2

kxu

I

L

Kui

Kui (India)

2

bbu

I

L

Kulung

Kulung (Nigeria)

2

kle

I

L

Kulung

Kulung (Nepal)

2

lha

I

L

Laha

Laha (Viet Nam)

2

lhh

I

L

Laha

Laha (Indonesia)

2

lak

I

L

Laka

Laka (Nigeria)

2

lap

I

L

Laka

Laka (Chad)

2

las

I

L

Lama

Lama (Togo)

2

lay

I

L

Lama

Lama (Myanmar)

2

laj

I

L

Lango

Lango (Uganda)

2

lno

I

L

Lango

Lango (Sudan)

2

lel

I

L

Lele

Lele (Democratic Republic of Congo)

4

llc

I

L

Lele

Lele (Guinea)

4

lle

I

L

Lele

Lele (Papua New Guinea)

4

lln

I

L

Lele

Lele (Chad)

4

leo

I

L

Leti

Leti (Cameroon)

2

lti

I

L

Leti

Leti (Indonesia)

2

loi

I

L

Loma

Loma (Côte d'Ivoire)

2

lom

I

L

Loma

Loma (Liberia)

2

mjn

I

L

Ma

Ma (Papua New Guinea)

2

msj

I

L

Ma

Ma (Democratic Republic of Congo)

2

mde

I

L

Maba

Maba (Chad)

2

mqa

I

L

Maba

Maba (Indonesia)

2

mda

I

L

Mada

Mada (Nigeria)

2

mxu

I

L

Mada

Mada (Cameroon)

2

mti

I

L

Maiwa

Maiwa (Papua New Guinea)

2

wmm

I

L

Maiwa

Maiwa (Indonesia)

2

mkg

I

L

Mak

Mak (China)

2

pbl

I

L

Mak

Mak (Nigeria)

2

ped

I

L

Mala

Mala (Papua New Guinea)

2

ruy

I

L

Mala

Mala (Nigeria)

2

mly

I

L

Malay

Malay (individual language)

2

msa

ms

M

L

Malay

Malay (macrolanguage)

2

mdc

I

L

Male

Male (Papua New Guinea)

2

mdy

I

L

Male

Male (Ethiopia)

2

mgs

I

L

Manda

Manda (Tanzania)

3

mha

I

L

Manda

Manda (India)

3

zma

I

L

Manda

Manda (Australia)

3

chm

M

L

Mari

Mari (Russia)

3

hob

I

L

Mari

Mari (Madang Province)

3

mbx

I

L

Mari

Mari (East Sepik Province)

3

mds

I

L

Maria

Maria (Papua New Guinea)

2

mrr

I

L

Maria

Maria (India)

2

mve

I

L

Marwari

Marwari (Pakistan)

2

rwr

I

L

Marwari

Marwari (India)

2

jms

I

L

Mashi

Mashi (Nigeria)

2

mho

I

L

Mashi

Mashi (Zambia)

2

mcw

I

L

Mawa

Mawa (Chad)

2

wma

I

E

Mawa

Mawa (Nigeria)

2

mpk

I

L

Mbara

Mbara (Chad)

2

mvl

I

E

Mbara

Mbara (Australia)

2

mbo

I

L

Mbo

Mbo (Cameroon)

2

zmw

I

L

Mbo

Mbo (Democratic Republic of Congo)

2

men

I

L

Mende

Mende (Sierra Leone)

2

sim

I

L

Mende

Mende (Papua New Guinea)

2

hna

I

L

Mina

Mina (Cameroon)

2

myi

I

L

Mina

Mina (India)

2

mow

I

L

Moi

Moi (Congo)

2

mxn

I

L

Moi

Moi (Indonesia)

2

mnh

I

L

Mono

Mono (Democratic Republic of Congo)

4

mnr

I

L

Mono

Mono (USA)

4

mru

I

L

Mono

Mono (Cameroon)

4

mte

I

L

Mono

Mono (Solomon Islands)

4

mhz

I

L

Mor

Mor (Mor Islands)

2

moq

I

L

Mor

Mor (Bomberai Peninsula)

2

mjh

I

L

Mwera

Mwera (Nyasa)

2

mwe

I

L

Mwera

Mwera (Chimwera)

2

naq

I

L

Nama

Nama (Namibia)

2

nmx

I

L

Nama

Nama (Papua New Guinea)

2

ngd

I

L

Ngando

Ngando (Central African Republic)

2

nxd

I

L

Ngando

Ngando (Democratic Republic of Congo)

2

ngc

I

L

Ngombe

Ngombe (Democratic Republic of Congo)

2

nmj

I

L

Ngombe

Ngombe (Central African Republic)

2

nnv

I

E

Nugunu

Nugunu (Australia)

2

yas

I

L

Nugunu

Nugunu (Cameroon)

2

nun

I

L

Nung

Nung (Myanmar)

2

nut

I

L

Nung

Nung (Viet Nam)

2

oke

I

L

Okpe

Okpe (Southwestern Edo)

2

okx

I

L

Okpe

Okpe (Northwestern Edo)

2

pnq

I

L

Pana

Pana (Burkina Faso)

2

pnz

I

L

Pana

Pana (Central African Republic)

2

ria

I

L

Riang

Riang (India)

2

ril

I

L

Riang

Riang (Myanmar)

2

sng

I

L

Sanga

Sanga (Democratic Republic of Congo)

2

xsn

I

L

Sanga

Sanga (Nigeria)

2

sbp

I

L

Sangu

Sangu (Tanzania)

2

snq

I

L

Sangu

Sangu (Gabon)

2

ske

I

L

Seke

Seke (Vanuatu)

2

skj

I

L

Seke

Seke (Nepal)

2

spb

I

L

Sepa

Sepa (Indonesia)

2

spe

I

L

Sepa

Sepa (Papua New Guinea)

2

soc

I

L

So

So (Democratic Republic of Congo)

2

sox

I

L

So

So (Cameroon)

2

swa

sw

M

L

Swahili

Swahili (macrolanguage)

2

swh

I

L

Swahili

Swahili (individual language)

2

ten

I

E

Tama

Tama (Colombia)

2

tma

I

L

Tama

Tama (Chad)

2

tcl

I

L

Taman

Taman (Myanmar)

2

tmn

I

L

Taman

Taman (Indonesia)

2

tbt

I

L

Tembo

Tembo (Kitembo)

2

tmv

I

L

Tembo

Tembo (Motembo)

2

tew

I

L

Tewa

Tewa (USA)

2

twe

I

L

Tewa

Tewa (Indonesia)

2

tnz

I

L

Tonga

Tonga (Thailand)

4

tog

I

L

Tonga

Tonga (Nyasa)

4

toi

I

L

Tonga

Tonga (Zambia)

4

ton

to

I

L

Tonga

Tonga (Tonga Islands)

4

don

I

L

Toura

Toura (Papua New Guinea)

2

neb

I

L

Toura

Toura (Côte d'Ivoire)

2

uro

I

L

Ura

Ura (Papua New Guinea)

2

uur

I

L

Ura

Ura (Vanuatu)

2

wll

I

L

Wali

Wali (Sudan)

2

wlx

I

L

Wali

Wali (Ghana)

2

war

I

L

Waray

Waray (Philippines)

2

wrz

I

L

Waray

Waray (Australia)

2

wmo

I

L

Wom

Wom (Papua New Guinea)

2

wom

I

L

Wom

Wom (Nigeria)

2

axk

I

L

Yaka

Yaka (Central African Republic)

3

iyx

I

L

Yaka

Yaka (Congo)

3

yaf

I

L

Yaka

Yaka (Democratic Republic of Congo)

3

yuw

I

L

Yau

Yau (Morobe Province)

2

yyu

I

L

Yau

Yau (Sandaun Province)

2



Here are the unique parentheticals:
(Akwa Ibom State)

(Australia)

(Bas-Uélé District)

(Benin)

(Bomberai Peninsula)

(Brazil)

(Burkina Faso)

(Côte d'Ivoire)

(Cameroon)

(Central African Republic)

(Chad)

(Chimwera)

(China)

(Colombia)

(Congo)

(Democratic Republic of Congo)

(East Sepik Province)

(Eastern Highlands)

(Edu State)

(Equatorial Guinea)

(Ethiopia)

(Fako Division)

(Gabon)

(Ghana)

(Guinea)

(India)

(individual language)

(Indonesia)

(Japan)

(Kenya)

(Kitembo)

(Korea)

(Laos)

(Liberia)

(macrolanguage)

(Madang Province)

(Maluku)

(Menchum Division)

(Mor Islands)

(Morobe Province)

(Motembo)

(Myanmar)

(Namibia)

(Nepal)

(Nigeria)

(Northwestern Edo)

(Nyasa)

(Pakistan)

(Papua New Guinea)

(Paraguay)

(Philippines)

(Russia)

(Sandaun Province)

(Sierra Leone)

(Solomon Islands)

(Southwestern Edo)

(Sudan)

(Sulawesi)

(Tanzania)

(Thailand)

(Togo)

(Tonga Islands)

(Tshopo District)

(Uganda)

(USA)

(Vanuatu)

(Viet Nam)

(West New Britain)

(Zambia)


I don't see much of a problem with any of them except for the (macro/individual language) ones.

Mark
On Dec 8, 2007 10:39 AM, Doug Ewell < dewell@roadrunner.com<mailto:dewell@roadrunner.com>> wrote:
Incidentally, this same question applies to cases like the following:

Type: language
Subtag: ain
Description: Ainu (Japan)
Description: Ainu
Added: 2005-10-16

where:

"Ainu" is the name used in ISO 639-2

"Ainu (Japan)" is the name used in ISO 639-3, because there is also an
"Ainu (China)" that wasn't coded in 639-2

Does it make sense to include both descriptions?  Doing so might confuse
people looking for the Chinese Ainu, who find "Ainu = ain" (in a user
interface, not looking directly at the LSR) and don't realize there is
also a Japanese Ainu and they've hit it by mistake.  Excluding "Ainu
(Japan)" would guarantee that this would happen.  But excluding plain
"Ainu" would once again be unacceptable to people who want all ISO 639-1
and -2 names (except inversions, now) retained in the LSR.  Which is the
least problematic course of action?

--
Doug Ewell  *  Fullerton, California, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell<http://home.roadrunner.com/%7Edewell>
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ˆ


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--
Mark
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