Re: [manet-dlep-rg] DLEP session establishment

["Taylor, Rick" <[e-mail]>]

Having recently spoken to a radio vendor, they too run a serious amount of services on their hardware, including a full linux routing stack, so being a server is no issue.

However, I still think the router is the correct device to be the server simply from the 1 to many relationship between router and modems.  One router has multiple simultaneous sessions with modems.  Modems have only one conversation with a router at once, this seems to match the router being the server and the modem calling connect().

Rick Taylor

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail] [mailto:manet-dlep-rg-
> [e-mail]] On Behalf Of Henning Rogge
> Sent: 13 November 2013 13:07
> To: Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
> Cc: DLEP Research Group ([e-mail]); Teco Boot
> Subject: Re: [manet-dlep-rg] DLEP session establishment
>
> I talked with a co-worker from our SDR department.
>
> He said that most SDRs he works with have mid- to high-end ARM/MIPS
> CPUs for handhelds and even more powerful ones for vehicle based SDRs.
>
> These devices already have the necessary libraries on board to open
> tcp server sockets for other purposes, software complexity for opening
> the socket should be no real issue.
>
> The other target platform I have in mind for DLEP are cheap embedded
> routers that are converted into DLEP-capable radios with a special
> firmware. They also have a full IP stack already present, a TCP server
> socket is a non-issue with them either.
>
> Henning Rogge
>
> On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 8:59 PM, Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
> <[e-mail]> wrote:
> > Teco,
> >
> > On Nov 12, 2013, at 2:05 PM, Teco Boot <[e-mail]> wrote:
> >
> >> Access list on modem is needed if not on trusted network.
> >> (all networks are less trusted these days...)
> >>
> >> Stan: you have received from multiple sources that modem may have more
> CPU power and memory than the router. Elect TCP server based on clock
> speed & memory footprint? As a router vendor, why not taking the easy
> part?
> >
> > One additional thought on this topic. In an earlier email on this same
> thread, you said (in part):
> > "...Let's keep the modem a somewhat dummy device."
> >
> > I 100% agree with that approach. It's part of what drives me to put
> "harder" code (like being a TCP server) into the router, not the modem.
> >
> > Stan
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Teco
> >>
> >> Op 12 nov. 2013, om 19:54 heeft Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
> <[e-mail]> het volgende geschreven:
> >>
> >>> That's fair. Also not what I was driving at, so my apologies. It goes
> back to my contention that TCP server code is "arguably more complex" than
> client code, and therefore, we should endeavor to put the TCP client code
> in the modem.
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>> Stan
> >>>
> >>> On Nov 12, 2013, at 1:47 PM, Henning Rogge <[e-mail]>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I don't think defending against spoofed IP packets, Syn-Floods or
> just
> >>>> DDOS should be part of DLEP.
> >>>>
> >>>> We have other layers for this.
> >>>>
> >>>> Henning Rogge
> >>>>
> >>>> On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 7:46 PM, Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
> >>>> <[e-mail]> wrote:
> >>>>> Fair point. Use of TLS would also help. But I don't think any of
> that defends against a SYN flood....  that requires things like a tight rein
> on listen depth, etc.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Regards,
> >>>>> Stan
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Nov 12, 2013, at 1:42 PM, Henning Rogge <[e-mail]>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> If you consider multi-hop connectivity, maybe using a VPN-Box might
> be
> >>>>>> a good idea... let the radio believe its single hop and outsource
> the
> >>>>>> security. ;)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Henning Rogge
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 7:40 PM, Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
> >>>>>> <[e-mail]> wrote:
> >>>>>>> Henning,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I agree, I don't think most networks forward IPv6 link-locals.
> But, once you consider the problem of allowing multi-hop connectivity,
> you've got the issue of defending against SYN attacks, etc. IMO, that is
> yet another reason for putting the TCP server functionality into the
> *router*, not the modem. The burden on the poor, supposedly resource-
> constrained modem just gets bigger, and bigger, and bigger...
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>>> Stan
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Nov 12, 2013, at 1:36 PM, Henning Rogge <[e-mail]>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I think most operation systems do not forward linklocal IPv6
> addresses...
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Henning Rogge
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 7:30 PM, Teco Boot <[e-mail]>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Op 12 nov. 2013, om 19:05 heeft Henning Rogge
> <[e-mail]> het volgende geschreven:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Easiest way to protect yourself against most "long range"
> attacks is
> >>>>>>>>>> to bind the TCP socket to an IPv6 linklocal address.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> There is traffic with IPv6 link local address on the Internet.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Sent packets with IPv6 link local address should have
> hopcount=1. Doesn't completely take away the problem. TTL=255 filter on
> incoming traffic is stronger (GTSM, RFC 5082).
> >>>>>>>>> Use GTSM filter and IPv6 link-local addresses by default?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Rick and I came up with the idea DLEP can be used between peers
> multiple hops away. Modem may have an option allowing it.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Teco
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Henning Rogge
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 7:04 PM, Teco Boot <[e-mail]>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> TCP 4-tupple is not enough to discard some form of blind TCP
> connect. There must be some sanity check.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Radio must protect itself against syn attack (no data, locked
> port).
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Teco
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Op 12 nov. 2013, om 17:21 heeft Taylor, Rick
> <[e-mail]> het volgende geschreven:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I seem to remember SCTP (which I hold in high regard) uses a
> cookie for its 4-way handshake on the grounds that it stops some types of
> spoofing attacks.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I'll re-read their rationale doc if I can find it.  I was
> just trying to cover some security considerations here, but it might be
> misplaced.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I just wonder whether replying to a broadcast with a IP
> address by blindly connecting to it without some way of checking what your
> connecting to is what you expect to be there is 'unsafe' - but you do make
> a good point about the TCP 4-tuple...
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Rick Taylor
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Stan Ratliff (sratliff) [mailto:[e-mail]]
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 12 November 2013 16:04
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Taylor, Rick
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: DLEP Research Group ([e-mail])
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [manet-dlep-rg] DLEP session establishment
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Rick,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Nov 12, 2013, at 10:45 AM, "Taylor, Rick"
> <[e-mail]>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hmmm... good point about complexity in the radio Stan.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd be okay with flipping the whole discovery process so
> the router
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> advertises and the radio connects.  Making the router
> maintain the extra
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> timer for strobing is probably more sensible.  Obviously
> some
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> recommendation for timing of the strobes is needed.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The handshake still stays 3-way and that covers most of my
> concerns.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any comment on a cookie in the offer?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> What is the cookie used for? I was thinking the TCP 4-tuple
> (Source
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> IP/Source Port/Destination IP/Destination Port) is
> sufficient for any
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> correlation.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Stan
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have double checked with the 04 draft, and you have
> covered the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> broadcast or configured unicast UDP address in the text, so
> I'm happy.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rick Taylor
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Stan Ratliff (sratliff) [mailto:[e-mail]]
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 12 November 2013 15:17
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Taylor, Rick
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: DLEP Research Group ([e-mail])
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [manet-dlep-rg] DLEP session establishment
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OK, looks like my opinion is "in the rough" on this one...
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But I'm still concerned about putting the TCP "server"
> code into the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (probably more) constrained modem device. So, what if we
> make the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *router*
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issue the Peer Discovery (call it a Peer Advertisement) to
> an MCAST
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> address/well-known port? That Peer Discovery/Peer
> Advertisement would
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contain the unicast IP address/port for the TCP listener.
> The modem
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> would
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> respond with the TCP SYN...
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The router would continue to periodically "strobe" the
> Peer
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Discovery/Peer
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Advertisement ad-nauseum (as much as I hate that
> approach).
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm really concerned about modem-side complexity, based on
> discussions
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> had a couple of years ago with some radio vendors who were
> looking at
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> implementing.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stan
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Nov 12, 2013, at 7:47 AM, "Taylor, Rick"
> <[e-mail]>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry for the delay, I was out of office yesterday.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My thoughts:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Router                                        Modem
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ===================================================
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1)                                  TCP socket listen()
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2)  <--------------------------- Peer Discovery Message
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      UDP unicast or broadcast?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                               + Session Cookie
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                             + TCP address/port
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   + Alternate reliable protocol endpoint infos
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3)  TCP connect()
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4)  Initialize (was Peer Offer) ---------------------->
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> + Session Cookie
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5)  <----------------------------------- Initialize ACK
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                               + Session Cookie
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                        + Supported metric TLVs
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My reasoning, often agreeing with others:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Modem 'advertises' its DLEP support, and therefore
> should
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be the one that listens for the TCP connect.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A cookie passed between the UDP discovery message and the
> TCP
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> connection adds a little security (is this the modem I
> think I am
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> connecting to?)  This could be extended to a full
> signature TLV
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in a later RFC.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Peer Discovery message could carry additional
> reliable
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> protocol endpoint information for non-TCP transports.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Initialize ACK is the correct place to put the
> 'default'
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> metric TLVs, and is sent by the modem.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A 3-way handshake seems safer to me.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have a question over whether the Peer Discovery message
> should
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be unicast to a configured destination, or broadcast to
> all
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> connected peers on a TBD port.  I prefer broadcast as it
> is more
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ZeroConf, but I can see use-cases for unicast to a
> configured
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> destination for more complex topologies.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rick Taylor
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: [e-mail] [mailto:manet-dlep-
> rg-
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [e-mail]] On Behalf Of Teco Boot
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 11 November 2013 16:29
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Stan Ratliff
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: DLEP Research Group ([e-mail])
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [manet-dlep-rg] DLEP session establishment
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 11 nov. 2013, om 01:55 heeft Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[e-mail]> het volgende geschreven:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, as to the Discovery: Here's what I'm writing up
> as we speak:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Router
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Modem
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ========================================
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                            <------------------------
> Peer
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Discovery Message
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Peer Offer with           ------------------------->
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unicast IP addr/
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> port for TCP connect
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So this is multicast reply, telling modem to connect?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why not TCP connect from router to modem? Makes more
> sense to me, the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> modem is the peer offering a service.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe add a TcpPort TLV in the Peer Discovery, this
> allows other than
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> IANA
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> assigned ports.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Connect on TCP socket. Router has issued TCP "listen",
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> modem issues TCP "connect" (e.g. Modem is the TCP
> "client",
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> router is the TCP "server")
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Now, The modem's UDP socket can be closed.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Please don't.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Over the TCP
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Socket,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                           <-------------------------
> Peer
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Initialization containing
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TLVs/default values for ALL
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> supported metric values - all
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> meaning the MANDATORY ones,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plus any optional metrics (right now,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just Resources) that are supported.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, here the full set TLV exchange takes place. This
> should not be
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Peer Discovery. That's why I suggested to put this in
> the Peer Offer.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Peer Initialization ACK ---------------------->
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MAY contain optional
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Layer 3 (address) TLVs
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm fine with three way handshake, not with this two
> way. Or use TCP
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disconnect when modem modem is not willing to accept
> first message
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> from
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> router.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Teco
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .... And, everything from there is basically the same
> as before.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>
> >>
> >
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