Re: [manet-dlep-rg] 802.11 Adhoc scenario
Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com> Thu, 06 March 2014 18:33 UTC
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References: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98FA6C34C0@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <480A632F-CB9E-4A62-ACDA-521C1A899049@inf-net.nl> <CAGnRvuqL8z+P5BJP-duyQo2BnTSpnkv7nDnOEdAQ1RfdXu7r+Q@mail.gmail.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98FA6C4B60@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98FA6C56BA@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <CAGnRvuotok8UC-=i9RU8RvAv_wcv1DE3ubRLqibWeDLF6KRuDA@mail.gmail.com> <FB821471-E223-41BE-8D38-24C54B2B92C5@cisco.com> <CAGnRvupAoaLtvsHh6TLXvxsBnmrLMtPCZ-VKuxR=gVPxnchWDQ@mail.gmail.com> <67373A27-5AB2-47D3-B543-C0EB72D0AD7C@cisco.com> <CAGnRvuqHknFWoLyv5RjM3OcJ+g4WsRTphMH8d9wLQV+m+J+6uw@mail.gmail.com> <DBAE1DE6-0929-40B3-A044-AF3560829F16@cisco.com> <CAGnRvuo4qeesXZV7Xy6Uy7X+UVRw3u4vPZTC9U26uVX_Qx78Nw@mail.gmail.com> <4AD4566B-72EA-476A-9F3B-D8CDFC6F20C4@cisco.com> <CAGnRvur=C6ay0fT1cmOv79SkR7DgBFEOo3oTo2fb16OS2JCJag@mail.gmail.com> <829C05C9-B357-4F0C-8EA9-34F8182D3F5F@cisco.com> <1D05E36C-A91D-415B-85F4-CEC8207E06D2@cisco.com> <679073E8-22C1-4423-AB98-DA25C1C11694@inf-net.nl> <CAEhHF6V7u7VSXytqhiLbgH3GO85ghzV=R4S-OpOPuukkHQ05CQ@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 18:33:00 +0000
Message-ID: <CAGnRvurQKEF+jkYHM3NyS_QLCNLpYmAkXYXMup+nmxm3xSEm8A@mail.gmail.com>
From: Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
To: John Dowdell <john.dowdell.ietf@gmail.com>
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Cc: "DLEP Research Group, (manet-dlep-rg@ietf.org)" <manet-dlep-rg@ietf.org>, Teco Boot <teco@inf-net.nl>, Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>, Stan Ratliff <sratliff@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [manet-dlep-rg] 802.11 Adhoc scenario
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Not sure I want to pretend 802.11s fixed anything... Henning On Mar 6, 2014 6:30 PM, "John Dowdell" <john.dowdell.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > All > > I am going to show my ignorance here, but is this 'feature' fixed in > 802.11s do you know? > > Regards > John > > On Thursday, March 6, 2014, Teco Boot <teco@inf-net.nl> wrote: > >> Stan, we know about the buggy BSSID coalescing. Bugs are solved in most >> drivers. Other drivers simply disable IBBS (ad hoc) mode. >> In most WLAN ad hoc networks, BSSID is generated as pseudo-random on SSID >> and optionally the channel ID. Or configured manually. Also, many WLAN ad >> hoc implementations deviate a little bit from the 802.11 standard by >> disabling management frames at all. The military WLAN based radio's deviate >> a little bit more than the community networks, by adjusted drivers, >> firmware and RF circuits. >> >> Teco >> >> Op 5 mrt. 2014, om 23:12 heeft Stan Ratliff (sratliff) < >> sratliff@cisco.com> het volgende geschreven: >> >> > I was just downstairs, smoking a cigarette, when I remembered one of >> the basic scenarios that stops people from using 802.11 adhoc for really >> mobile deployments. Thought I'd offer it up as some rationale for my >> earlier statement regarding 802.11 adhoc. I wish I had the lightening >> recall and scathing keyboard abilities of some in the MANET working group, >> but alas, the years, the beer, the medical conditions, and the prescription >> drugs that go with the medical conditions have slowed the memory access >> somewhat... ;-) >> > >> > I've heard this referred to as the "Split-BSSID Problem", but I don't >> know if that's the official term, so let me lay out the scenario. While I >> don't put interval times in my scenario, there on the order of a small >> number of seconds. That being said, the scenario goes like this: >> > >> > 1) I configure up 4 802.11 adhoc radios and associated gear for a demo. >> I configure the radios with 802.11 BSSID "Foo". The gear and the software >> is works great; everyone can talk to everyone else, it looks beautiful. >> Now, all I need to do is to get some people for the demo, which uses the >> radios in a man-packable fashion. Oh, by the way, the demo is at some >> remote location (let's say Honolulu, because I've always liked the beach). >> So, I power down the gear, pack it up, and... >> > >> > 2) I get Henning, Teco, Rick, and Stan (after all, I'm going to >> Honolulu) to do the demo. Once we're down around Waikiki Beach, I hand out >> the gear (it's still powered off, BTW). >> > >> > 3) With the gear powered off, Henning and Teco walk to the right; Rick >> and Stan walk to the left (non-smokers in one direction, smokers in the >> other). They stroll along the beach, until they get quite a distance from >> each other (out of 802.11 radio range). >> > >> > 4) Since it's still early, Henning and Teco, as well as Rick and Stan, >> get a coffee at the Starbucks (there's one on every corner), and Rick and >> Stan light up a cigarette (nasty habit). At the appointed time for the demo, >> > >> > 5) Stan turns his radio and gear on. So does Teco. Stan's radio BEACONs >> with "Foo" as the BSSID. So does Teco's radio. They don't find anyone. Both >> radios think "Well, I'm the first guy here". So Stan's radio adds a "magic >> number", which is really a hash of its MAC address, to the BEACON. Teco's >> radio computes a different magic number (since he has a different MAC), and >> does the same thing. A second or two later, >> > >> > 6) Rick turns his radio on. So does Henning. Rick's radio BEACONs, but >> sees Stan's radio BEACON as well. So Rick's radio basically says "Oh, cool. >> There's someone here. I'll just take his magic number, and join the BSSID". >> So Stan's radio and Rick's radio are chatting away. Henning's radio BEACONs >> as well, and sees Teco's radio. Henning's radio also says "Cool! Someone's >> already here", and adopts Teco's magic number. Henning's radio and Teco's >> radio are also chatting away with each other. >> > >> > 7) Now, the "mobility scenario" starts. Rick and Stan start walking >> back down the beach, toward the starting point. Henning and Teco do the >> same. Before long, all 4 come into radio range with each other. But since >> they've got different "magic numbers", they *WILL NOT* establish one big, >> happy, 4-person BSSID. Stan's radio can't talk to either Henning or Teco; >> neither can Rick's. The demo is starting to go spectacularly wrong... >> > >> > The only way out of this to power off two of the radios - well, the >> *right* two radios (either Stan's and Rick's; OR Teco's and Henning's), and >> power them back up. Then, they'll join the existing adhoc BSSID, and >> everyone will be happy. The moral of the story? Every radio that >> participates in an adhoc BSSID MUST be powered up whilst "in range". >> Otherwise, said radio won't be able to ultimately join the BSSID, even >> though they're configured correctly. IMO, it's a flaw (and a BIG one) in >> the adhoc portion of the 802.11 spec. >> > >> > Thanks for reading and considering my little story... ;-) >> > >> > Regards, >> > Stan >> > _______________________________________________ >> > manet-dlep-rg mailing list >> > manet-dlep-rg@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet-dlep-rg >> >> _______________________________________________ >> manet-dlep-rg mailing list >> manet-dlep-rg@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet-dlep-rg >> >
- [manet-dlep-rg] London meet up? Rick Taylor
- Re: [manet-dlep-rg] London meet up? Teco Boot
- Re: [manet-dlep-rg] London meet up? Henning Rogge
- Re: [manet-dlep-rg] London meet up? Rick Taylor
- Re: [manet-dlep-rg] London meet up? Joseph Macker
- Re: [manet-dlep-rg] London meet up? Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [manet-dlep-rg] London meet up? Rick Taylor
- Re: [manet-dlep-rg] London meet up? Henning Rogge
- Re: [manet-dlep-rg] London meet up? Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [manet-dlep-rg] London meet up? Henning Rogge
- Re: [manet-dlep-rg] London meet up? Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [manet-dlep-rg] London meet up? Henning Rogge
- Re: [manet-dlep-rg] London meet up? Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [manet-dlep-rg] London meet up? Henning Rogge
- Re: [manet-dlep-rg] London meet up? Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [manet-dlep-rg] London meet up? Henning Rogge
- Re: [manet-dlep-rg] London meet up? Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- [manet-dlep-rg] 802.11 Adhoc scenario Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [manet-dlep-rg] 802.11 Adhoc scenario Joe Macker
- Re: [manet-dlep-rg] 802.11 Adhoc scenario Joe Macker
- Re: [manet-dlep-rg] 802.11 Adhoc scenario Henning Rogge
- Re: [manet-dlep-rg] London meet up? Teco Boot
- Re: [manet-dlep-rg] London meet up? Teco Boot
- Re: [manet-dlep-rg] London meet up? Henning Rogge
- Re: [manet-dlep-rg] London meet up? Teco Boot
- Re: [manet-dlep-rg] London meet up? Teco Boot
- Re: [manet-dlep-rg] London meet up? Teco Boot
- Re: [manet-dlep-rg] London meet up? Teco Boot
- Re: [manet-dlep-rg] 802.11 Adhoc scenario Teco Boot
- Re: [manet-dlep-rg] London meet up? Taylor, Rick
- Re: [manet-dlep-rg] London meet up? Teco Boot
- Re: [manet-dlep-rg] London meet up? Taylor, Rick
- Re: [manet-dlep-rg] 802.11 Adhoc scenario John Dowdell
- Re: [manet-dlep-rg] 802.11 Adhoc scenario Henning Rogge
- Re: [manet-dlep-rg] 802.11 Adhoc scenario Joe Macker
- Re: [manet-dlep-rg] 802.11 Adhoc scenario Teco Boot
- Re: [manet-dlep-rg] 802.11 Adhoc scenario Henning Rogge
- Re: [manet-dlep-rg] 802.11 Adhoc scenario Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [manet-dlep-rg] London meet up? Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [manet-dlep-rg] London meet up? Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [manet-dlep-rg] 802.11 Adhoc scenario Taylor, Rick
- Re: [manet-dlep-rg] London meet up? Teco Boot
- Re: [manet-dlep-rg] London meet up? Stan Ratliff (sratliff)