Re: [Masque] Call for MASQUE use cases

[Ted Hardie <[e-mail]>]

In-line.

Ted

On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 8:57 AM Spencer Dawkins at IETF <
[e-mail]> wrote:

> Hi, Ben,
>
> I have a couple of questions about some use cases you described (inline),
> but thank you for sending out your list.
>
> On Sun, Feb 23, 2020 at 10:06 PM Ben Schwartz <bemasc=
> [e-mail]> wrote:
>
>> I think virtually all the use cases for SOCKS and HTTP CONNECT are also
>> in-scope for MASQUE.  Additionally, there are some cases that they don't
>> handle, or that MASQUE could handle better:
>>
>>  - TCP proxying over congested/lossy client-proxy links.  SOCKS and
>> HTTP/1.1 don't multiplex, so the congestion controllers for each TCP
>> connection fight over this link.  HTTP/2 multiplexes but has head-of-line
>> blocking on loss.  CONNECT over HTTP/3 would get us unified
>> congestion control without blocking.
>>
>
> IIRC, CONNECT currently doesn't know how to do HTTP/3 over QUIC, right? So
> is what you're thinking about
>
>    - Connect can do HTTP/3 - proxy - HTTP/3 or HTTP/2 - proxy - HTTP/2, OR
>    - Connect can do HTTP - proxy - HTTP, where the HTTP versions don't
>    have to match?
>
>  - Proxied WebRTC (or RTC generally).  Currently, using a proxy generally
> forces WebRTC to use TCP, which generally also forces it to route through a
> TURN server (another proxy!).  This adds up to significantly impaired
> latency and quality.  By supporting UDP, MASQUE could do better.
>
>>
>> - Virtual machine running in a webpage.  MASQUE could enable standardized
>> networking for virtual machines in WebAssembly.
>>
>> - Network debugging when using a proxy.  HTTP CONNECT doesn't provide any
>> indication of why a connection failed, e.g. to distinguish RST, FIN,
>> timeout, or an ICMP error.
>>
>
> We've come some distance since I was introducing myself at IESG meetings
> as "AD for the spin bit", but we haven't come a really long way - the spin
> bit is in and optional, which is fine, and we are noticing
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ferrieuxhamchaoui-quic-lossbits/
> as a related draft, but we haven't had it on a QUIC working group agenda in
> the past year (IIRC),
>
It was the last item discussed at the last interim, see the minutes here:
https://github.com/quicwg/wg-materials/blob/master/interim-20-02/minutes.md

regards,

Ted Hardie


> even though it gets talked about in places like MOPS. And that's just one
> more (almost certainly optional) bit of information, if it does move
> forward.
>
> I'm intrigued by your proposed use case on network debugging, especially
> if proxying HTTP/3 using CONNECT becomes a common mode of operation - have
> you started to hash out details for this use case, what might be visible
> without revealing too much, etc.? If not, would you like to work on
> something with me (and, one hopes, smarter and more realistic QUIC people)?
>
> Best,
>
> Spencer
>
>
>> On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 6:14 PM Eric Rescorla <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>
>>> I am interested in this as an alternative transport for securely
>>> proxying HTTP traffic (cf. https://fpn.firefox.com/)
>>>
>>> -Ekr
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 7:13 PM Christopher Wood <[e-mail]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The core MASQUE protocol [1] describes a simple negotiation mechanism
>>>> for various
>>>> applications. However, it omits use cases for these applications.
>>>> MASQUE
>>>> obfuscation
>>>> in support of a "hidden VPN" service is one use case [2]. Tunneling
>>>> QUIC
>>>> is another [3].
>>>>
>>>> Given that MASQUE and the upcoming BoF will be successful insofar as it
>>>> addresses important
>>>> use cases, I think it'd be useful to discuss these application use
>>>> cases
>>>> in more detail
>>>> before Vancouver. To that end, let's use this time before the meeting
>>>> to
>>>> discuss them!
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to ask interested parties to please surface use cases they
>>>> know
>>>> of (and care about).
>>>>
>>>> Thanks!
>>>> Chris
>>>>
>>>> [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-schinazi-masque-02
>>>> [2] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-schinazi-masque-obfuscation-00
>>>> [3] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kuehlewind-quic-substrate-02
>>>>
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>>>>
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