Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-korhonen-mext-mip6-altsec
"Laganier, Julien" <julienl@qualcomm.com> Fri, 28 January 2011 19:15 UTC
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From: "Laganier, Julien" <julienl@qualcomm.com>
To: jouni korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-korhonen-mext-mip6-altsec
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Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 19:18:39 +0000
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Cc: "mext@ietf.org" <mext@ietf.org>, "jan@go6.si" <jan@go6.si>, "Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com" <Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com>
Subject: Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-korhonen-mext-mip6-altsec
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Hello again, Thought that maybe making my question a bit more specific would help: So, why don't you simply define a UDP encapsulation to ESP, instead of duplicating ESP functionality into your framework? --julien Laganier, Julien wrote: > > Hi Jouni, > > I understand you "follow the ESP format but feel no shame on changing > it if we see a reason to do so", but I am (shamelessly ;) wondering > about the actual reason to do so, as per one of the famous > Architectural Principles of the Internet documented in RFC 1958: > > 3.2 If there are several ways of doing the same thing, choose one. > If a previous design, in the Internet context or elsewhere, has > successfully solved the same problem, choose the same solution unless > there is a good technical reason not to. Duplication of the same > protocol functionality should be avoided as far as possible, without > of course using this argument to reject improvements. > > Would you mind enlightening us? > > --julien > > jouni korhonen wrote: > > > > Few things. The draft already states that "The Padding, Pad Length, > > Next Header and ICV fields follow the rules of Section 2.4 to 2.8 of > > [RFC4303] unless otherwise stated in this document." So, we follow > > the ESP format but feel no shame on changing it if we see a reason > > to do so. > > > > The reason why we chose to do it like this was two fold: 1) some > > ciphers etc when used would need ~equivalent encapsulation anyway. > > 2) if we had come up with our very own format the question on the > > list would have been "why not using RFC4303 encapsulation format". > > Actually.. the latter already happened offline. > > > > - Jouni > > > > > > On Jan 26, 2011, at 12:48 AM, Laganier, Julien wrote: > > > > > Hi Raj, > > > > > >> Inline: > > >> > > >> On 1/24/11 3:58 PM, "ext Arnaud Ebalard" <arno@natisbad.org> > wrote: > > >> > > >>> > > >>> To me, what the draft describes is a patchwork based on MIPv6, > ESP > > and > > >>> TLS. Instead of building on top of those protocols (read > modularity > > >> and > > >>> interoperability), it reuses (hijacks) various blocks of > associated > > >>> standards in a non-modular way. For instance, one has to > > reimplement > > >> ESP > > >>> in userspace to support the protocol. > > >> > > >> We are specifying an encapsulation method in the I-D. To say that > > one > > >> has to reimplement ESP in userspace is incorrect. > > > > > > The encapsulation format you have in the I-D is: > > > > > > 0 1 2 3 > > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 > > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > > | | > > > : IPv4 or IPv6 header (src-addr=Xa, dst-addr=Ya) : > > > | | > > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > > | | > > > : UDP header (src-port=Xp,dst-port=Yp) : > > > | | > > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ - > -- > > --- > > > |PType=8| SPI | > > ^Int. > > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > |Cov- > > > | Sequence Number | > > |ered > > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | > - > > --- > > > | Payload Data* (variable) | | > > ^ > > > : : | > > | > > > | | > > |Conf. > > > + +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > |Cov- > > > | | Padding (0-255 bytes) | > > |ered* > > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | > > | > > > | | Pad Length | Next Header | v > > v > > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ - > -- > > --- > > > | Integrity Check Value-ICV (variable) | > > > : : > > > | | > > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > > > > > Figure 7: UDP Encapsulated Binding Management Message Format > > > > > > Which looks like a copy/paste of the ESP specification [RFC4303]: > > > > > > 0 1 2 3 > > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 > > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ - > -- > > - > > > | Security Parameters Index (SPI) | > > ^Int. > > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > |Cov- > > > | Sequence Number | > > |ered > > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | > - > > --- > > > | Payload Data* (variable) | | > > ^ > > > ~ ~ | > > | > > > | | > > |Conf. > > > + +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > |Cov- > > > | | Padding (0-255 bytes) | > > |ered* > > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | > > | > > > | | Pad Length | Next Header | v > > v > > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ - > -- > > --- > > > | Integrity Check Value-ICV (variable) | > > > ~ ~ > > > | | > > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > > > > > Figure 1. Top-Level Format of an ESP Packet > > > > > > > > > So the question is: Is your intent to provide a UDP encapsulation > > format for the already specified ESP protocol, or to provide an > > alternative encapsulation format to ESP? > > > > > > --julien > > > _______________________________________________ > > > MEXT mailing list > > > MEXT@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mext > > > > _______________________________________________ > > MEXT mailing list > > MEXT@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mext > _______________________________________________ > MEXT mailing list > MEXT@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mext
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… Hidetoshi Yokota
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… Laganier, Julien
- [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-korhone… marcelo bagnulo braun
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… Jan Zorz @ go6.si
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… Arnaud Ebalard
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… Basavaraj.Patil
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… Jan Zorz @ go6.si
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… Arnaud Ebalard
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… jouni korhonen
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… Domagoj Premec
- [MEXT] IRON - a new approach to mobility manageme… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… Laganier, Julien
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… Suresh Krishnan
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… Ahmad Muhanna
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption ofI-D: draft-korh… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [MEXT] IRON - a new approach to mobility mana… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… Jouni
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… Laganier, Julien
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… Laganier, Julien
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… Jouni
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… Laganier, Julien
- Re: [MEXT] IRON - a new approach to mobility mana… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… liu dapeng
- Re: [MEXT] IRON - a new approach to mobility mana… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… Julien Laganier
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… jouni korhonen
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… Julien Laganier
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… Jouni
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… Julien Laganier