Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-korhonen-mext-mip6-altsec
"Laganier, Julien" <julienl@qualcomm.com> Fri, 28 January 2011 23:07 UTC
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From: "Laganier, Julien" <julienl@qualcomm.com>
To: Jouni <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-korhonen-mext-mip6-altsec
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Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 23:10:07 +0000
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Cc: "mext@ietf.org" <mext@ietf.org>, "jan@go6.si" <jan@go6.si>, "Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com" <Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com>
Subject: Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-korhonen-mext-mip6-altsec
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None of these two points explains to me why you have to duplicate ESP functionality: 1) You have chosen to handle SPI differently, but I don't know why. 2) As to ESP being absent, if the goal is to not protect some of the user-plane traffic, you can use ESP-NULL, or just the UDP encap... --julien None of the above explains why you need to Jouni wrote: > > Hmm.. we do handle SPIs differently and our "ESP" can be absent even if > UDP encap is used. Would that be an issue regarding the reuse of > existing formats? > > - Jouni > > > On Jan 29, 2011, at 12:29 AM, Laganier, Julien wrote: > > > Either. > > > > IMHO both would be cleaner that the current approach. I understand > the latter might also have some caveat but maybe they can be dealt with > in an elegant manner, without introducing too much complexity, e.g., > see Arnaud's m6t (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ebalard-mext-m6t- > 02.txt) > > > > --julien > > > > Jouni wrote: > >> > >> Just a question for my clarification. Do you mean simply taking the > UDP > >> encap + ESP format or also inheriting everything those respective > RFCs > >> say about their processing etc? > >> > >> - JOuni > >> > >> > >> On Jan 28, 2011, at 9:18 PM, Laganier, Julien wrote: > >> > >>> Hello again, > >>> > >>> Thought that maybe making my question a bit more specific would > help: > >>> > >>> So, why don't you simply define a UDP encapsulation to ESP, instead > >> of duplicating ESP functionality into your framework? > >>> > >>> --julien > >>> > >>> Laganier, Julien wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Hi Jouni, > >>>> > >>>> I understand you "follow the ESP format but feel no shame on > >> changing > >>>> it if we see a reason to do so", but I am (shamelessly ;) > wondering > >>>> about the actual reason to do so, as per one of the famous > >>>> Architectural Principles of the Internet documented in RFC 1958: > >>>> > >>>> 3.2 If there are several ways of doing the same thing, choose one. > >>>> If a previous design, in the Internet context or elsewhere, has > >>>> successfully solved the same problem, choose the same solution > >> unless > >>>> there is a good technical reason not to. Duplication of the same > >>>> protocol functionality should be avoided as far as possible, > >> without > >>>> of course using this argument to reject improvements. > >>>> > >>>> Would you mind enlightening us? > >>>> > >>>> --julien > >>>> > >>>> jouni korhonen wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Few things. The draft already states that "The Padding, Pad > Length, > >>>>> Next Header and ICV fields follow the rules of Section 2.4 to 2.8 > >> of > >>>>> [RFC4303] unless otherwise stated in this document." So, we > follow > >>>>> the ESP format but feel no shame on changing it if we see a > reason > >>>>> to do so. > >>>>> > >>>>> The reason why we chose to do it like this was two fold: 1) some > >>>>> ciphers etc when used would need ~equivalent encapsulation anyway. > >>>>> 2) if we had come up with our very own format the question on the > >>>>> list would have been "why not using RFC4303 encapsulation format". > >>>>> Actually.. the latter already happened offline. > >>>>> > >>>>> - Jouni > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Jan 26, 2011, at 12:48 AM, Laganier, Julien wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Hi Raj, > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Inline: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 1/24/11 3:58 PM, "ext Arnaud Ebalard" <arno@natisbad.org> > >>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> To me, what the draft describes is a patchwork based on MIPv6, > >>>> ESP > >>>>> and > >>>>>>>> TLS. Instead of building on top of those protocols (read > >>>> modularity > >>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>> interoperability), it reuses (hijacks) various blocks of > >>>> associated > >>>>>>>> standards in a non-modular way. For instance, one has to > >>>>> reimplement > >>>>>>> ESP > >>>>>>>> in userspace to support the protocol. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> We are specifying an encapsulation method in the I-D. To say > that > >>>>> one > >>>>>>> has to reimplement ESP in userspace is incorrect. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The encapsulation format you have in the I-D is: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> 0 1 2 3 > >>>>>> 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 > >>>>>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- > + > >>>>>> | > | > >>>>>> : IPv4 or IPv6 header (src-addr=Xa, dst- > addr=Ya) : > >>>>>> | > | > >>>>>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- > + > >>>>>> | > | > >>>>>> : UDP header (src-port=Xp,dst- > port=Yp) : > >>>>>> | > | > >>>>>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- > + > >> - > >>>> -- > >>>>> --- > >>>>>> |PType=8| SPI > | > >>>>> ^Int. > >>>>>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- > + > >>>>> |Cov- > >>>>>> | Sequence Number > | > >>>>> |ered > >>>>>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- > + > >> | > >>>> - > >>>>> --- > >>>>>> | Payload Data* (variable) > | > >> | > >>>>> ^ > >>>>>> : > : > >> | > >>>>> | > >>>>>> | > | > >>>>> |Conf. > >>>>>> + +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- > + > >>>>> |Cov- > >>>>>> | | Padding (0-255 bytes) > | > >>>>> |ered* > >>>>>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- > + > >> | > >>>>> | > >>>>>> | | Pad Length | Next Header > | > >> v > >>>>> v > >>>>>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- > + > >> - > >>>> -- > >>>>> --- > >>>>>> | Integrity Check Value-ICV (variable) > | > >>>>>> : > : > >>>>>> | > | > >>>>>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- > + > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Figure 7: UDP Encapsulated Binding Management Message Format > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Which looks like a copy/paste of the ESP specification > [RFC4303]: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> 0 1 2 3 > >>>>>> 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 > >>>>>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- > + > >> - > >>>> -- > >>>>> - > >>>>>> | Security Parameters Index (SPI) > | > >>>>> ^Int. > >>>>>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- > + > >>>>> |Cov- > >>>>>> | Sequence Number > | > >>>>> |ered > >>>>>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- > + > >> | > >>>> - > >>>>> --- > >>>>>> | Payload Data* (variable) > | > >> | > >>>>> ^ > >>>>>> ~ > ~ > >> | > >>>>> | > >>>>>> | > | > >>>>> |Conf. > >>>>>> + +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- > + > >>>>> |Cov- > >>>>>> | | Padding (0-255 bytes) > | > >>>>> |ered* > >>>>>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- > + > >> | > >>>>> | > >>>>>> | | Pad Length | Next Header > | > >> v > >>>>> v > >>>>>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- > + > >> - > >>>> -- > >>>>> --- > >>>>>> | Integrity Check Value-ICV (variable) > | > >>>>>> ~ > ~ > >>>>>> | > | > >>>>>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- > + > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Figure 1. Top-Level Format of an ESP Packet > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> So the question is: Is your intent to provide a UDP > encapsulation > >>>>> format for the already specified ESP protocol, or to provide an > >>>>> alternative encapsulation format to ESP? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> --julien > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> MEXT mailing list > >>>>>> MEXT@ietf.org > >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mext > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> MEXT mailing list > >>>>> MEXT@ietf.org > >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mext > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> MEXT mailing list > >>>> MEXT@ietf.org > >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mext > >
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… Hidetoshi Yokota
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… Laganier, Julien
- [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-korhone… marcelo bagnulo braun
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… Jan Zorz @ go6.si
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… Arnaud Ebalard
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… Basavaraj.Patil
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… Jan Zorz @ go6.si
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… Arnaud Ebalard
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… jouni korhonen
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… Domagoj Premec
- [MEXT] IRON - a new approach to mobility manageme… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… Laganier, Julien
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… Suresh Krishnan
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… Ahmad Muhanna
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption ofI-D: draft-korh… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [MEXT] IRON - a new approach to mobility mana… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… Jouni
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… Laganier, Julien
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… Laganier, Julien
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… Jouni
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… Laganier, Julien
- Re: [MEXT] IRON - a new approach to mobility mana… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… liu dapeng
- Re: [MEXT] IRON - a new approach to mobility mana… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… Julien Laganier
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… jouni korhonen
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… Julien Laganier
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… Jouni
- Re: [MEXT] Call for WG adoption of I-D: draft-kor… Julien Laganier