Re: [mile] Ben Campbell's Discuss on draft-ietf-mile-xmpp-grid-09: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
Dave Cridland <dave@cridland.net> Mon, 25 March 2019 23:11 UTC
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From: Dave Cridland <dave@cridland.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2019 23:11:20 +0000
Message-ID: <CAKHUCzx1CDUs4_fzM7x5kK-vLsc+bqS65rzBpyo70LfwV+8Bjw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@mozilla.com>
Cc: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>, "draft-ietf-mile-xmpp-grid@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-mile-xmpp-grid@ietf.org>, "mile-chairs@tools.ietf.org" <mile-chairs@tools.ietf.org>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "mile-chairs@ietf.org" <mile-chairs@ietf.org>, "mile@ietf.org" <mile@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [mile] Ben Campbell's Discuss on draft-ietf-mile-xmpp-grid-09: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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On Sun, 24 Mar 2019 at 22:06, Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@mozilla.com> wrote: > Hi Ben, thanks for continuing to engage on these topics. Replies inline. > > On 3/24/19 3:55 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: > > > > > >> On Mar 24, 2019, at 10:14 PM, Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@mozilla.com> > wrote: > >> > >> On 3/24/19 1:32 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: > >>> Hi, apologies for not getting back to this sooner. I’m trying to close > >>> or clarify my DISCUSS points prior to stepping down from the IESG this > >>> week. Please see inline: > >>> > >>> Thanks! > >>> > >>> Ben. > >>> > >>>> On Mar 4, 2019, at 6:49 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) > >>>> <ncamwing@cisco.com <mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Hi Ben, > >>>> Thanks for the careful review and comments, please see answers > below: > >>>> > >>>> On 1/22/19, 19:14, "Ben Campbell" <ben@nostrum.com > >>>> <mailto:ben@nostrum.com>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> DISCUSS: > >>>> > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> > >>>> Hi, thanks for the readable approach to this. I like the plain > >>>> English approach > >>>> to the security considerations, in particular. But I do have > >>>> some comments, > >>>> including a couple that I think needs to be resolved before > >>>> progressing the > >>>> draft: > >>>> > >>>> 1) I was surprised not to see a discussion of the "never-meet" > >>>> problem. That > >>>> is, what happens if a provider and a consumer never connect > >>>> with the controller > >>>> at the same time. Is the controller expected to > >>>> store-and-forward items > >>>> submitted to a topic prior to when the consumer connects? IIRC > >>>> (and I apologize > >>>> that I did not have time to refresh my memory on the > >>>> referenced XEPs), that > >>>> sort of behavior is optional under XEP-0060. Is it required > >>>> for this use case? > >>>> Is support for delayed delivery (xep-0203) or something > >>>> similar required? Or > >>>> perhaps platforms are expected to keep long-lived connections? > >>>> [NCW] I think this is an implementation detail, but we've added a > >>>> sentence in section 4 > >>>> To describe that it is an option per XEP-0060. > >>> > >>> I’m not sure that’s enough to solve the isssue. I think this is more > >>> than an implementation detail. I think there’s some implicit > assumptions > >>> about how and when providers and consumers connnect to the server that > >>> are required for interoperation. These should be explicit. For example, > >>> do you expect that consumers will maintain long-lived connections to > the > >>> server, or just connect occasionally to download any waiting data? If > >>> there are several new pieces of data published while a consumer is not > >>> connected, do they expect to download all the changes or just the > >>> latest? (i,e does this require the server to be configured for > >>> persistent items?) > >> > >> The "never-meet" problem isn't really a problem in XMPP - all servers > >> implement support for so-called "offline messages" and the message > >> delivery semantics defined in Section 8 of RFC 6121 take full account of > >> eventual delivery by servers to clients that are not online at the time > >> the message was created. A reference to RFC 6121 should be sufficient to > >> correctly specify this behavior. > > > > > > I agree referencing RFC 6121 would help. I had missed the fact the > examples use ‘message' stanzas (although if there is normative text that > says to do that, I have still missed it.) > > XEP-0060 uses message stanzas for content delivery. > > > Am I mistaken to remember that offline-storage is still optional even > for message stanzas? > > > > In any case, a mention of the use of offline-storage as described in > 6121 would be sufficient to for me to clear on this point. It would be nice > for it to suggest (normatively or otherwise) the use of offline-storage, or > at least point out the consequences of not using it. > > Specifying that servers MUST support offline storage for these use cases > seems appropriate. I can't remember why we said it was only SHOULD-level > in the updated XMPP RFCs (6120 & 6121) - that was silly of us. > > We called it SHOULD because there are multiple methods for the decortication of felines, some possibly preferable to the "traditional" offline messages, and it might be a sensible choice to use these and no longer support offline messages in the sense of XEP-0160. In particular, there's XEP-0313 (Message Archive Management) which, either as a "personal" archive on the consumer's server, or as a service available on the Pubsub Node, would allow a consumer to "catch up" perfectly well - and probably more effectively than the XEP-0160 style. Plus there's XEP-0198 (Stream Management), which rather blurs what "offline" actually means, XEP-0357 (Push Notifications) which might send the traffic out of band, and so on. Also "SHOULD" doesn't mean "OPTIONAL", as Ben OUGHT to know. ;-) > Peter > > _______________________________________________ > mile mailing list > mile@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile >
- [mile] Ben Campbell's Discuss on draft-ietf-mile-… Ben Campbell
- Re: [mile] Ben Campbell's Discuss on draft-ietf-m… Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)
- Re: [mile] Ben Campbell's Discuss on draft-ietf-m… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [mile] Ben Campbell's Discuss on draft-ietf-m… Ben Campbell
- Re: [mile] Ben Campbell's Discuss on draft-ietf-m… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [mile] Ben Campbell's Discuss on draft-ietf-m… Ben Campbell
- Re: [mile] Ben Campbell's Discuss on draft-ietf-m… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [mile] Ben Campbell's Discuss on draft-ietf-m… Ben Campbell
- Re: [mile] Ben Campbell's Discuss on draft-ietf-m… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [mile] Ben Campbell's Discuss on draft-ietf-m… Ben Campbell
- Re: [mile] Ben Campbell's Discuss on draft-ietf-m… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [mile] Ben Campbell's Discuss on draft-ietf-m… Ben Campbell
- Re: [mile] Ben Campbell's Discuss on draft-ietf-m… Florian Schmaus
- Re: [mile] Ben Campbell's Discuss on draft-ietf-m… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [mile] Ben Campbell's Discuss on draft-ietf-m… Dave Cridland
- Re: [mile] Ben Campbell's Discuss on draft-ietf-m… Florian Schmaus
- Re: [mile] Ben Campbell's Discuss on draft-ietf-m… Peter Saint-Andre