Re: [MLS] MLS: the WG name should include "group"

Jon Millican <> Sat, 24 March 2018 13:43 UTC

Return-Path: <>
Received: from localhost (localhost []) by (Postfix) with ESMTP id A69F6129C51 for <>; Sat, 24 Mar 2018 06:43:47 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.711
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.711 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.b=A48I4oGe; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.b=T1c3Cwzw
Received: from ([]) by localhost ( []) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lPuQvAOsP5Ep for <>; Sat, 24 Mar 2018 06:43:45 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ( []) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F121A1201F2 for <>; Sat, 24 Mar 2018 06:43:44 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from pps.filterd ( []) by ( with SMTP id w2ODg4ot014701; Sat, 24 Mar 2018 06:43:41 -0700
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : mime-version; s=facebook; bh=+tJvhtH63SQLlgDBpo8DC6YbpcIUVCf2/MoS8SRkGII=; b=A48I4oGevxLdwLEpT1fGpFUQD54ioVoGjlQNYcHfpbpIEdR2IrPUVOmlt7/X21nQet1k 8+24jvngH6o81RzErGYNwCHZ6uhT5OngLZuxsvO0mxpBwjDJXt1WXe6GKQ0Dgs9DwDTF 5kKf7Ns3+tM4EphUPk/mp2BdaWEJevDJFis=
Received: from ([]) by with ESMTP id 2gwjbmgd34-1 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 24 Mar 2018 06:43:41 -0700
Received: from ( by ( with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.361.1; Sat, 24 Mar 2018 06:43:40 -0700
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;; s=selector1-fb-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=+tJvhtH63SQLlgDBpo8DC6YbpcIUVCf2/MoS8SRkGII=; b=T1c3CwzwqBJhsXNyzxe1w9VV/5DfJOM64igLsPStyUc06JJXl+Y6epRjdvcQegbrK63HcFXCD2YB2iLzev0vH19odXQki1xobOY3M6B5fdSDncc0ec9yX+8mHIbq5/2No7Wj4xGkyecFgUydm/PBVptXj1A4WwGCUPXwPdEzlOM=
Received: from ( by ( with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.609.10; Sat, 24 Mar 2018 13:43:37 +0000
Received: from ([]) by ([]) with mapi id 15.20.0609.012; Sat, 24 Mar 2018 13:43:37 +0000
From: Jon Millican <>
To: Shivan <>
CC: Daniel Kahn Gillmor <>, "" <>
Thread-Topic: [MLS] MLS: the WG name should include "group"
Thread-Index: AQHTw2NOh1i9TiA6Lk6ldNKeXbExraPfXXAAgAAIAt0=
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2018 13:43:37 +0000
Message-ID: <>
References: <>, <>
In-Reply-To: <>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-GB
x-originating-ip: []
x-ms-publictraffictype: Email
x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BN6PR15MB1411; 7:5WsZsGsitvNbOZ5bGOycKrVspvozNa9zCKsw9lwgrCRDh3Vy9/1OODh5w+HREm+PS0HhzvQ8gRPba9MZsI4bBBPIKg4qoc1Rff0RKyfeVX9P9WBqyjVLH76+o7WFOfreHTBI41piUjgtf3qFZ/O2Rq3P/s8o8bBYPlqnEVWwOoeNi109dxbp/ik2hkgtxbVDFdHuuTyDWiyRE8r/TXCyU8Il88c8V37BLJMJh7befOHHPzD64Xf5eluhH/BWORyt; 20:794L9RZxQ+YREZ9ZFhSLmiifRBFSrV6xl4YJ84641LgSKGToMAXGDBVM7ln0aXJPgXneH3TH6kJmbr5/8qTEcqeyT7lfUD2Ii/xV1BEGnGr204Mqhf8wO7hoWCISn3yRlC7xNdZURcbaVzfguM9rNnky0v1QyOZ5PUZnFq+MF7o=
x-ms-exchange-antispam-srfa-diagnostics: SOS;
x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 266a7eae-7a0e-4f00-543f-08d5918d3efd
x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(7020095)(4652020)(5600026)(4604075)(3008032)(4534165)(7168020)(4627221)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(2017052603328)(7153060)(7193020); SRVR:BN6PR15MB1411;
x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BN6PR15MB1411:
x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: <>
x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:(10436049006162)(192374486261705)(85827821059158);
x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(8211001083)(6040522)(2401047)(8121501046)(5005006)(3002001)(10201501046)(93006095)(93001095)(3231221)(11241501184)(944501327)(52105095)(6041310)(20161123562045)(201703131423095)(201702281528075)(20161123555045)(201703061421075)(201703061406153)(20161123560045)(20161123564045)(20161123558120)(6072148)(201708071742011); SRVR:BN6PR15MB1411; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:BN6PR15MB1411;
x-forefront-prvs: 0621E7E436
x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(366004)(396003)(39860400002)(346002)(39380400002)(376002)(199004)(189003)(60444003)(69224002)(97736004)(33656002)(81156014)(66066001)(6916009)(8936002)(68736007)(8676002)(82746002)(39060400002)(2616005)(81166006)(5660300001)(105586002)(4326008)(229853002)(3846002)(6116002)(6436002)(2900100001)(6486002)(36756003)(55236004)(26005)(102836004)(25786009)(2906002)(7736002)(106356001)(3280700002)(478600001)(53936002)(6246003)(53546011)(76176011)(6506007)(99286004)(54906003)(966005)(77096007)(6306002)(86362001)(236005)(316002)(14454004)(446003)(186003)(59450400001)(11346002)(3660700001)(606006)(575784001)(6512007)(54896002)(83716003); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BN6PR15MB1411;; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en;
received-spf: None ( does not designate permitted sender hosts)
x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 0QMlCbbXaOE4odbpqBF6G6gIkcsS3z4A5/zqjQE/XdhbcszcXtzZurTG4laKuRiGW7qs0Ud6dv8iYAh8SfeFxYdTMRv8NYyNLBiiKVfTqxWMlpfrUxeSPeCya59abSM1ZHJKTdSJ9h8S0jUTmI7zV6D+mmoLGQx+ZKCQmdn6Gm6FqdiDasAjLjzoUffchbHGvhjEGFhzXGTlzVFJlEikRKL7UPOaNpWbQYeJKozCnHZgs92vXQAcNA0CzJQPHphrLUmmE4czO6i4mwarYaczH1rrKUC+ZoFhlDA61O40pi6VAdPTKiQV9zh8d3LXCMSbzgluiiAKt7voWi0vm5P0vw==
spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99
spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_FD644F8C38BA4573B7F6EF6AC4FEB57Cfbcom_"
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 266a7eae-7a0e-4f00-543f-08d5918d3efd
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 24 Mar 2018 13:43:37.4117 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 8ae927fe-1255-47a7-a2af-5f3a069daaa2
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN6PR15MB1411
X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2018-03-24_07:, , signatures=0
X-Proofpoint-Spam-Reason: safe
X-FB-Internal: Safe
Archived-At: <>
Subject: Re: [MLS] MLS: the WG name should include "group"
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22
Precedence: list
List-Id: Messaging Layer Security <>
List-Unsubscribe: <>, <>
List-Archive: <>
List-Post: <>
List-Help: <>
List-Subscribe: <>, <>
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2018 13:43:48 -0000

Thanks for raising this point. I'm also no good at naming, but agree that there's potential scope to name more clearly. A couple of points in response to the specific issues you raised though:

While most of the discussion has focused on groups, my feeling is that this is because group is a more challenging superset of the pairwise case; and we should still care about pairwise messaging. In the pairwise case I think the main differentiator compared with TLS is the requirement for asynchronicity; so if we're clearly carving up the territory it might make sense to highlight this.

Just my 2c though. I have no objection at all to changing the name, and certainly agree that group support is a crucial aspect that could be worth highlighting.


On 24 Mar 2018, at 13:15, Shivan <<>> wrote:

+1 the name seems to be inspired by TLS but the drafts concern themselves explicitly with group messaging, not messaging as a whole.

On Sat, Mar 24, 2018, 11:28 AM Daniel Kahn Gillmor <<>> wrote:
Thanks for all the work that has gone into the proposed MLS architecture
and protocol drafts already.

As we move toward working group formation, i'm a little bit concerned
that the ostensible name of the project ("message layer security")
doesn't adequately describe the most salient features.

We spent most of the time at the BoF in IETF 101 London talking about
the design of the group key agreement scheme and the strong
cryptographic properties we want it to provide -- and i suspect that
most of the work in any formed WG will center around that problem.

So it seems odd to me that the word "group" doesn't appear in the name

I'm no good at acronyms, but i'll just throw out two alternatives:

  MSG: Messaging Security for Groups

  MESSAGE: Message Encryption and Security Standard for Asynchronous Group Environments

I hope since the WG isn't yet formed, it's not too late to consider a
change to the name.  We ought to be up front about the group-specific
context that we're talking about here, as we already have a security
layer that works for messages passing between two endpoints
synchronously (TLS) and it'd be nice to clearly carve up the territory.

MLS mailing list<><>
MLS mailing list<>