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Re: [MLS] Éric Vyncke's Discuss on draft-ietf-mls-architecture-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> Thu, 02 February 2023 00:27 UTC

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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2023 16:27:18 -0800
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To: Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca>
Cc: Éric Vyncke <evyncke@cisco.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-mls-architecture@ietf.org, mls-chairs@ietf.org, mls@ietf.org, me@katriel.co.uk, cas.cremers@cs.ox.ac.uk, thyla.van.der@merwe.tech, jmillican@fb.com, raphael@wire.com, Sean Turner <sean@sn3rd.com>, tale@dd.org, jinmei@wide.ad.jp
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Subject: Re: [MLS] Éric Vyncke's Discuss on draft-ietf-mls-architecture-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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I think Tor is the easier case in that in the common case it does not
necessarily deliver end-to-end, but just provides a secure channel to the
last hop relay. It's not clear how this is directly applicable to the cae
in question. IPsec is a bit more plausible, but most common IPsec
deployment scenarios are VPN rather than point-to-point.

Just as a practical matter, I think it's pretty clear that the vast
majority of secured transport connections for any application layer
protocol are going to be application layer security transports like TLS or
QUIC.

-Ekr


On Wed, Feb 1, 2023 at 2:14 PM Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca> wrote:

> On Tue, 31 Jan 2023, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>
> >       Is it appropriate for an IETF RFC (even if informal) to qualify
> WireGuard and
> >       TOR as `secure channel` ? This DISCUSS point is only to generate
> discussion
> >       among the IESG during the telechat. This discuss point will be
> removed anyway
> >       after the discussion.
> >
> > I don't think this is necessarily a problem, but I think the citation of
> these protocols
> > is actually confusing in this context.
>
> Why is it confusing? What makes IPsec or tor confusing versus TLS or QUIC ?
>
> Paul
>

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