Re: [MLS] MLS: the WG name should include "group"

Robert Moskowitz <rgm-sec@htt-consult.com> Fri, 20 July 2018 00:22 UTC

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To: Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx>, Joseph Lorenzo Hall <joe@cdt.org>
Cc: Jon Millican <jmillican@fb.com>, Nadim Kobeissi <nadim@symbolic.software>, Suhas Nandakumar <suhasietf@gmail.com>, Raphael Robert <raphael@wire.com>, =JeffH <jeff.hodges@kingsmountain.com>, mls@ietf.org, Daniel Kahn Gillmor <dkg@fifthhorseman.net>
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From: Robert Moskowitz <rgm-sec@htt-consult.com>
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Subject: Re: [MLS] MLS: the WG name should include "group"
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If I would make a change it would be to MLK or MLSK.

This effort is (per the charter) about installing and managing Message 
Level **KEYING**

Message Level Security includes how the messages are protected (securely 
enveloped) over the communication channel.  That is out of scope of this 
effort.  (see my SSE draft if you want a general session level secure 
envelope).

And is it just message level or multicast message level (MMLK).  :)

Bob


On 07/19/2018 07:11 PM, Richard Barnes wrote:
> I don't have strong feelings here.  I'm not wedded to MLS, but I don't 
> want to move from that to something lame :) MLS has the benefit of 
> getting some "trustiness" from the resonance with TLS, and we already 
> have the top Google hits for "MLS protocol".  I'm not sure MSG is 
> enough better to motivate a change.
>
> On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 6:51 PM Joseph Lorenzo Hall <joe@cdt.org 
> <mailto:joe@cdt.org>> wrote:
>
>     +1
>     On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 6:43 PM Jon Millican <jmillican@fb.com
>     <mailto:jmillican@fb.com>> wrote:
>     >
>     > This discussion came up again at the hackathon, and I think
>     there was a fair bit of sympathy for the idea of at least changing
>     the protocol name to MSG; for the reasons described in this thread.
>     >
>     > Personally I'd be keen to have something slightly more uniquely
>     Googleable than MSG, but I don't think that MLS is any better in
>     this regard.
>     >
>     > On 27/03/2018, 19:03, "MLS on behalf of
>     jeff.hodges@kingsmountain.com
>     <mailto:jeff.hodges@kingsmountain.com>" <mls-bounces@ietf.org
>     <mailto:mls-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of
>     jeff.hodges@kingsmountain.com
>     <mailto:jeff.hodges@kingsmountain.com>> wrote:
>     >
>     >     +1
>     >
>     >     Quoting Daniel Kahn Gillmor <dkg@fifthhorseman.net
>     <mailto:dkg@fifthhorseman.net>>:
>     >     > On Sun 2018-03-25 21:33:42 +0200, Nadim Kobeissi wrote:
>     >     >> I do not believe the name should be changed:
>     >     >>
>     >     >> 1. MLS is a protocol that is equally suited for pairwise
>     messaging
>     >     >> as it is for group messaging
>     >     >> 2. The MLS name is elegant and mirrors TLS..
>     >     >
>     >     > "Mirroring TLS" is exactly what i'm afraid of. This is a
>     radically
>     >     > different protocol, performing demonstrably different work
>     at a
>     >     > different position within the stack, with a different view
>     on what
>     >     > interoperability even means.
>     >     >
>     >     > Let's make it very clear that this *is not* TLS, and that
>     it is not a
>     >     > substitute for TLS.
>     >     >
>     >     > The protocol described in the documents is *not*
>     equally-suited for
>     >     > pairwise messaging -- it has a number of subtle features
>     that are
>     >     > included solely because it is intended to handle group
>     messaging.  As
>     >     > other people have written upthread, the protocol this
>     nascent WG aims to
>     >     > describe will handle pairwise messaging as a special case
>     of group
>     >     > messaging.  It is not designed intentionally for pairwise
>     messaging and
>     >     > if it were, it would have a different design.
>     >     >
>     >     >           --dkg
>     >
>     >
>     >
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>     -- 
>     Joseph Lorenzo Hall
>     Chief Technologist, Center for Democracy & Technology
>     [https://www.cdt.org]
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