Re: [mmox] One more time: The LESS model vs the Generic Client model

Christian Scholz <cs@comlounge.net> Fri, 20 March 2009 13:59 UTC

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Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 15:00:13 +0100
From: Christian Scholz <cs@comlounge.net>
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Cc: MMOX-IETF <mmox@ietf.org>, Jon Watte <jwatte@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [mmox] One more time: The LESS model vs the Generic Client model
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Hi!

Frisby, Adam wrote:
> I've been avoiding this list lately since I've not had the time to
> read the (very) significant number of posts made in recent history,
> however I am going to chime in here again and say we should be
> utilizing URI-style constructs as much as possible.

+1

> I believe we [may] have a rough consensus that there are elements we
> want to standardise, this being authentication and identity circuits.
> However there is no reason why the client<->region connection needs
> to be fixed as a specific protocol, simply the result from the
> authentication mechanism can return a URI.

That might be bascially what I am proposing in the draft I've written:

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-cscholz-mmox-architecture-00.txt

Basically what it means is the following:

1. Client wants to connect to region X
2. Client retrieves the XRDS file of region X (stored under a URL)
3. Client checks the XRDS file for services it understands

An XRDS file basically stores types of services as URIs and attached the
service endpoints to it (again URIs), e.g.

    <Service>
      <Type>http://ns.opensocial.org/2008/opensocial/people</Type>
      <URI>http://api.myspace.com/v2/people/</URI>
    </Service>

This would say that it can find the OpenSocial profile API at
http://api.myspace.com/v2/people

This format is already in use for OpenID and the experimental OAuth
discovery. At the IETF meeting there should also be some talk about
service discovery in general (I heard Eran was asked to talk about it at
the App Area meeting).

> 
> For instance,
> 
> MMOX defines a auth protocol, client makes attempt to connect to a
> environment via this auth protocol, is returned a URI with
> "mxp://ip/regionID/", or a "olive://ip/region", or a
> "secondlife://region/x/y/z". (or perhaps a combination of the above
> for servers capable of handling more than one [eg opensim].)

So in this case with XRDS you would simply provide 2 <Service> elements.

> This then allows others to pitch client<->region standards and let
> the market weed out what is deemed to be effective / noneffective. It
> would still then be entirely in the remit of this group to propose a
> standard for the above too - however by utilizing the URI schema, it
> does not force implementers into using it (only recommends it as a
> 'common reference point').

+1. And you are flexible to exchange, add or remove protocols in
questions whenever you need to.

It also would allow us to start with some bits of interoperability which
we can expand on later (e.g. 2D realm with identification, profile,
friends, IM, inventory management for now, 3D stuff later).

-- Christian


> 
> Adam
> 
>> -----Original Message----- From: mmox-bounces@ietf.org
>> [mailto:mmox-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jon Watte Sent: Monday,
>> 16 March 2009 8:10 AM To: Morgaine Cc: MMOX-IETF Subject: Re:
>> [mmox] One more time: The LESS model vs the Generic Client model
>> 
>> Morgaine wrote:
>>> The goal is simply to get us beyond the current pro-client/anti-
>> client
>>> discussion, which like almost all polarized pro/anti discussions,
>>> is rarely constructive.
>> The reason we ended up here was because I said OGP will not be
>> widely adopted outside the Second Life / OpenSim sphere, because it
>> requires significant engineering in the client/server connection to
>> achieve any kind of interop through OGP, for any kind of
>> cross-technology interop. In the OGP model, currently, if Open Sim
>> wants to connect to OLIVE, they need to implement the OLIVE
>> protocol. If OLIVE wants to connect to Metaverse, they need to
>> implement the Metaverse protocol. I consider that broken. You
>> suggest that this problem will be solved by engineering a standard 
>> client/server protocol. I point at the history of synchronous 
>> interactive online systems (note: web is not synchronous, and
>> hardly interactive), and say that I don't believe such a standard
>> is feasible (politically or technically). Thus, I believe that an
>> "interop" protocol that requires all technology clients to be able
>> to talk to all other technology clients to not actually deliver
>> feasible interop (nevermind that it doesn't solve the world mash-up
>> problem). While there may be, in your words, "generic" clients
>> within a specific technology domain, that doesn't mean much for
>> cross-technology interop.
>> 
>> Note: because words seem to be mis-understood, in the above
>> comments, when I say "technology," I mean "virtual world platform
>> DNA" -- Multiverse is a technology; OLIVE is a technology, Second
>> Life is a technology, Unreal 3 is a technology. When it comes to
>> client/server, interop between different worlds using the same
>> technology is easy (at least if the technology makes it so); it's
>> interop between different technologies that needs standardization
>> to happen.
>> 
>> Sincerely,
>> 
>> jw
>> 
>> _______________________________________________ mmox mailing list 
>> mmox@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmox
> _______________________________________________ mmox mailing list 
> mmox@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmox


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