Re: [mmox] Learning from the past; focusing on the future
Gareth Nelson <gareth@litesim.com> Tue, 24 February 2009 07:24 UTC
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Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 07:25:15 +0000
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From: Gareth Nelson <gareth@litesim.com>
To: Robert Gehorsam <RGehorsam@forterrainc.com>
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Cc: Jon Watte <jwatte@gmail.com>, Mystical Demina <MysticalDemina@xrgrid.com>, mmox@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [mmox] Learning from the past; focusing on the future
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Do we have a chronic case of the bystander problem? :) I think such approaches may be best coming from a "big name", *cough* LL and IBM *cough* On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 7:23 AM, Robert Gehorsam <RGehorsam@forterrainc.com> wrote: > Anyone who wants to, I think. There are places like Virtual World News weekly where something could be posted too. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gareth Nelson [mailto:gareth@litesim.com] > Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 2:22 AM > To: Meadhbh Hamrick (Infinity) > Cc: Robert Gehorsam; mmox@ietf.org; Mystical Demina; Jon Watte > Subject: Re: [mmox] Learning from the past; focusing on the future > > Not your place to commit them, but whose place is it to at least contact them? > > On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 10:10 PM, Meadhbh Hamrick (Infinity) <infinity@lindenlab.com> wrote: >> yes. the purpose of the upcoming MMOX BoF session is to get people >> from a diverse collection of virtual worlds / MMOs in the same room at >> the same time to discuss: >> >> a. is a working group a good idea? >> b. if so, how should we constrain the problem domain? >> c. if we can't agree on the same problem domain, does it make sense to >> have multiple working groups? >> >> it is telling that the 74th IETF meeting is held during the same week >> and less than a mile away from this year's game developers conference, >> but it is not my place to commit representatives from the companies >> you mention to attend. >> >> -cheers >> -meadhbh >> >> On Feb 23, 2009, at 1:30 PM, Robert Gehorsam wrote: >> >>> I think part of the issue here with regard to the debate between >>> broad and narrow interoperability is that, other than Jon >>> representing Forterra's technical efforts, there are no other visibly >>> participating technical representatives from any other virtual world >>> technology providers or other relevant groups. No one from Sun, >>> Qwaq, Multiverse, HiPiHi, Activeworlds, any of the browser-based >>> folks, Twinity, any of the game folks or kids worlds, Makena (the >>> company that, contrary to some folks' assertions, is the company that >>> makes and operates There.com), Proton Media, Icarus or its various >>> partners, ECS, and so forth. I've seen references to Qwaq but >>> haven't seen Greg or anyone else from there participating here. >>> There are probably two dozen companies that would be reasonable >>> candidates for this discussion, not to mention companies like Adobe, >>> Google, Intel, Samsung, Sony and, yes, even Microsoft, all of which >>> might arguably have some interesting contributions to make. >>> >>> It may be that this lack of broad participation is creating -- fairly >>> or unfairly -- the sense that the conversation will naturally drift >>> towards an SL-OS orientation -- despite what I see as the best >>> intentions of many people here -- simply because, other than >>> Forterra, no one else is stepping up to the plate. I can tell you >>> that *that* is not something that Forterra wants to see, because it's >>> inherent in our view of the evolution of the internet that >>> interoperability between diverse virtual worlds is essential for all >>> to succeed. So the imbalance in this ongoing discussion creates a >>> false dynamic of conflict when none is intended. Without broad >>> input, how can we achieve broad interoperability? >>> >>> Is there any outreach going on to these various organizations, or is >>> that somehow not part of the policy? Not being really familiar with >>> the workings of these sorts of technical groups, I just don't know. >>> >>> Robert >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: mmox-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mmox-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf >>> Of Jon Watte >>> Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 4:15 PM >>> To: Morgaine >>> Cc: Mystical Demina; mmox@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [mmox] Learning from the past; focusing on the future >>> >>> Morgaine wrote: >>>> >>>> I can't understand why you continue to raise the spectre that we're >>>> here to rubberstamp SL standards. We aren't. I'm not aware of >>>> anybody with that agenda. >>>> >>> >>> Because there are several people on this list who say "OpenSim and >>> Second Life are already trying to do client interoperability; I think >>> we should run with it and not worry about something bigger." >>> Similarly, I find that the current OGP proposal specifies some thing >>> ("Rezzing" of avatars) that are Second Life centric, while not >>> specifying other things that would be necessary for an actually >>> useful interoperable virtual world (like entity telemetry). >>> >>> Similarly, if OGP is specified as a mostly empty vessel that can >>> contain arbitrary negotiated data, what would probably happen would >>> be that OpenSim puts OpenSim data in that vessel, and IMVU puts IMVU >>> data in that vessel, and both claim to support "OGP interoperability" >>> but you can't do anything useful through that claim. I want to avoid >>> that outcome. >>>> >>>> We are working in good faith towards your item 2), while noting that >>>> item 2) means interop with "all" reasonable worlds, and that >>>> includes Linden worlds. It's not either/or, it's both. Please >>>> grant us that, so that we can actually make headway. >>>> >>>> /(Proviso: your item 2) says /*single ... simulation*/, which is >>>> incorrect, as we have no remit to straightjacket diverse worlds into >>>> a >>> >>>> single simulation.)/ >>> >>> What I mean by "single simulation" is what the user sees when >>> connected to a specific, interoperating instance. I suppose the user >>> could be connected to multiple of those, similar to opening multiple >>> video streams in a media player, but then those generally have >>> "nothing" to do with each other. >>> >>> >>> Okay, so if most of us agree on 2), can we just say we have "rough >>> consensus" on that, and politely reject any attempt to steer the work >>> towards 1)? >>> >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> jw >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> mmox mailing list >>> mmox@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmox >>> _______________________________________________ >>> mmox mailing list >>> mmox@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmox >> >> _______________________________________________ >> mmox mailing list >> mmox@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmox >> >
- Re: [mmox] Learning from the past; focusing on th… Mystical Demina
- Re: [mmox] Learning from the past; focusing on th… Jon Watte
- Re: [mmox] Learning from the past; focusing on th… Gareth Nelson
- Re: [mmox] Learning from the past; focusing on th… Morgaine
- Re: [mmox] Learning from the past; focusing on th… Jon Watte
- Re: [mmox] Learning from the past; focusing on th… Robert Gehorsam
- Re: [mmox] Learning from the past; focusing on th… Dan Olivares
- Re: [mmox] Learning from the past; focusing on th… Robert Gehorsam
- [mmox] Industry involvement (was RE: Learning fro… Hurliman, John
- Re: [mmox] Learning from the past; focusing on th… Meadhbh Hamrick (Infinity)
- Re: [mmox] Learning from the past; focusing on th… Gareth Nelson
- Re: [mmox] Learning from the past; focusing on th… Gareth Nelson
- Re: [mmox] Learning from the past; focusing on th… Robert Gehorsam
- Re: [mmox] Learning from the past; focusing on th… Gareth Nelson
- Re: [mmox] Learning from the past; focusing on th… Jon Watte
- Re: [mmox] Learning from the past; focusing on th… Gareth Nelson