Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-data-channel
Gunnar Hellström <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se> Fri, 23 August 2019 12:51 UTC
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To: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, Bernard Aboba <bernard.aboba@gmail.com>
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From: Gunnar Hellström <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>
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Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 14:51:05 +0200
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Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-data-channel
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I hope I can stop introducing new topics soon, and contribute to resolving them instead... But another topic to cover is multi-party session support. The requirement is: U-C 5: Realtime text chat during an audio and/or video call with an individual or with multiple people in a conference. I hope that will be straightforward. /Gunnar Den 2019-08-23 kl. 12:09, skrev Christer Holmberg: > Hi, > >>>> I want to add one issue for the security section: Can we specify a way to achieve end-to-end encryption of T.140 >>>> data between a WebRTC endpoint and a traditional SIP/RFC 4103 endpoint through a gateway? I know that that is a >>>> desired feature. >>> How would you do that? The data channel uses DTLS encryption, and SIP/RFC 4103 uses SRTP encryption, so >>> doesn't the gateway have to decrypt/encrypt the T.140 traffic? >> >> I have just heard the requirement to have end-to-end encryption of RTT, >> I do not have the solution. One possibility would maybe be to have media >> encryption end-to-end as well as the two transport encryptions. But that >> complicates the possibility to insert the missing text markers by the >> gateway if text loss is detected. > > Yes. > > However, keep in mind that the scope of the draft is how to use SDP O/A to negotiate a T.140 WebRTC data channel. We DO include some text regarding interworking with SIP/RFC 4103, because we know there are environments where such interworking takes place. > > But, extending T.140 and/or RFC 4103 (e.g., defining a new application level encryption mechanism for T.140) is outside the scope. > > Regards, > > Christer > > > > > > > > > Den 2019-08-22 kl. 16:28, skrev Christer Holmberg: > >> I have created a pull request, which will be used for the changes based on Gunnar's comments: > >> > >> https://protect2.fireeye.com/url?k=f453465c-a88743e3-f45306c7-868f633d > >> bf25-4deb49c05b8a2375&q=1&u=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fcdh4u%2Fdraft-d > >> atachannel-t140%2Fpull%2F5 > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> Christer > >> > >> On 22/08/2019, 13.39, "mmusic on behalf of Christer Holmberg" <mmusic-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > >> > >> Hi Gunnar, > >> > >> Thanks you for your support (I assume :) and comments on the draft! > >> > >> See inline. > >> > >> >A couple of comments: > >> >1) In 3.2, the attribute "cps" is misspelled "cpc" once. > >> > >> Will fix. > >> > >> --- > >> > >> >2) Section 5 has some historical references to real-time text transports that may not be of much interest anymore > >> >and instead confuse the reader, while some other more relevant transports may be added. > >> > >> I took these from the schwarz draft. You probably know better > >> than me which ones are relevant, so feel to suggest which one(s) > >> should be removed, and which one(s) should be be added :) > >> > >> >I would also like to discuss if it could be possible to have a few general recommendations on the webrtc to sip/rfc4103 case without > >> >the problems you see with having a detailed gateway section. > >> > >> The second last paragraph covers some things on the media plane (out of order and loss of RTP packets) that I think are worth mentioning. > >> > >> As far as SDP interworking is concerned, this draft defines the m- line for T.140 data channel, and RFC 4103 defines the m- line for T.140 RTP, and the interworking should be very straight forwards. Do you have something specific in mind regarding general recommendations? > >> > >> --- > >> > >> > 3) Reliability. Section 3.1 implies that the channel is used in the reliable and ordered mode. We have been discussing back and forth > >> > if that is the right choice for real-time text. I tend to think it is, but it might be useful to discuss it once again. The traditional user > >> > requirement on real-time text is that produced characters shall be presented to the receiver within one second from their creation. > >> > Modern usage in speech-to-text applications may require more rapid transmission. As I understand it, the reliable mode of the > >> > data channel may imply long periods of choked transmission in case of network problems or by influence of heavy transmission > >> > in another channel. As long as this happens only in case of network problems, I now tend to think that that might be acceptable. > >> > The effects of being forced to use an unreliable channel are so far-going so I would like to avoid that. > >> > However, the word "reliable" is misleading. A "reliable" channel is not really reliable. It can break in case of problems. > >> > >> True, but "reliable" is the terminology used in both RFC 4960 (SCTP) and draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel. > >> > >> > I think some recommendations should be inserted in section 4 about what to do when a channel breaks. The natural action > >> > would be for both sides to try to figure out what was the last T.140 data that was transmitted and received, and then try to > >> > reconnect and resume transmission if successful. If any T.140 data was lost during the break, that state should be marked > >> > by inserting the "missing data" T.140 indicator in the received stream. There needs of course also be a recommended action > >> > if it turns out to be impossible to reconnect after a low number of retries. > >> > >> I can for sure add some text about that. Are there generic T.140 recommendations for failure that we can reference, or do you think there is something T.140 data channel specific? > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> Christer > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> mmusic mailing list > >> mmusic@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic > >> > >> > > -- > > ----------------------------------------- > > Gunnar Hellström > > Omnitor > > gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se > > +46 708 204 288 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > mmusic mailing list > > mmusic@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic > > -- > ----------------------------------------- > Gunnar Hellström > Omnitor > gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se > +46 708 204 288 > > > -- ----------------------------------------- Gunnar Hellström Omnitor gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se +46 708 204 288
- [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-us… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Belling, Thomas (Nokia - DE/Munich)
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… R.Jesske
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-data-ch… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Roni Even (A)
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Roni Even (A)
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Roni Even (A)
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Roni Even (A)
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Paul Kyzivat