Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions
"Stach, Thomas" <thomas.stach@siemens-enterprise.com> Sun, 28 July 2013 14:37 UTC
Return-Path: <thomas.stach@siemens-enterprise.com>
X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D91021F9DA9 for <mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 28 Jul 2013 07:37:02 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.599
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PPeWNOU76Dd1 for <mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 28 Jul 2013 07:36:52 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from senmx12-mx.siemens-enterprise.com (senmx12-mx.siemens-enterprise.com [62.134.46.10]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 180BF21F9C4E for <mmusic@ietf.org>; Sun, 28 Jul 2013 07:36:48 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from MCHP01HTC.global-ad.net (unknown [172.29.42.234]) by senmx12-mx.siemens-enterprise.com (Server) with ESMTP id 8C6A923F04AE; Sun, 28 Jul 2013 16:36:46 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from MCHP04MSX.global-ad.net ([169.254.1.30]) by MCHP01HTC.global-ad.net ([172.29.42.234]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Sun, 28 Jul 2013 16:36:46 +0200
From: "Stach, Thomas" <thomas.stach@siemens-enterprise.com>
To: Emil Ivov <emcho@jitsi.org>, Alan Johnston <alan.b.johnston@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions
Thread-Index: AQHOiB3rOpQLK3xMc0CKfL3MA1dNd5lzc2MAgAAEQYCABrTt4A==
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 14:36:46 +0000
Message-ID: <F81CEE99482EFE438DAE2A652361EE1214978846@MCHP04MSX.global-ad.net>
References: <51D43186.2010907@jitsi.org> <C5E08FE080ACFD4DAE31E4BDBF944EB1136080A7@xmb-aln-x02.cisco.com> <CAKhHsXH5+58am748qLsojC_kzdgfEpkEy5GM_XTRN5MPMMVWcw@mail.gmail.com> <51EFA5DD.3000805@jitsi.org>
In-Reply-To: <51EFA5DD.3000805@jitsi.org>
Accept-Language: de-AT, en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
x-originating-ip: [172.29.42.225]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MIME-Version: 1.0
Cc: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" <fluffy@cisco.com>, MMUSIC IETF WG <mmusic@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions
X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group <mmusic.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/mmusic>, <mailto:mmusic-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/mmusic>
List-Post: <mailto:mmusic@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:mmusic-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic>, <mailto:mmusic-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 14:37:02 -0000
... chiming in after vacation > -----Original Message----- > From: mmusic-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mmusic-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Emil Ivov > Sent: Wednesday, 24 July, 2013 12:01 > To: Alan Johnston > Cc: Cullen Jennings (fluffy); MMUSIC IETF WG > Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions > > Hey Alan, Cullen, > > On 24.07.13, 11:45, Alan Johnston wrote: > > Agree with Cullen - if there is a reasonable approach (such as > > retransmitting 180) that avoids PRACK, then we should use this > approach. > > There is one and it comes down to requiring the remote side to send an > INFO request as soon as it gets it. The INFO request could contain > trickled candidates (in the case of full trickle) or just > end-of-candidates (in the case of half-trickle). > > This could work and, personally, I have no issue with it. [TS] I think this also works for me. > > I believe the suggestion that Christer made was: given how the above > basically works as a PRACK minus the O/A and given how the O/A in > PRACKs > seems to be a deal breaker for many, [TS] It is not only the O/A in PRACK, but also the arbitrary number of further O/As in UPDATEs before the 200OK to the initial INVITE. > then we might want to generalize > the above mechanism so that other specs can also use it. [TS] Yes, I think that would be good. Paul also seemed to propose to do something generic with my INFO/481/ re-send 18x proposal. http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/mmusic/current/msg11754.html I liked that as well, but as said above I could also live with acknowledging the 18x with an immediate INFO from the UAC. Regards Thomas > > Cheers, > Emil > > > > - Alan - > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 11:28 PM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) > > <fluffy@cisco.com <mailto:fluffy@cisco.com>> wrote: > > > > > > I prefer the 180 resend approach and all the right things are > > already looking at them. I have always objected to mandating use > of > > PRACK. Obviously I'm fine with things that have PRACK can use it > but > > I want some solution for things that don't. > > > > One small note, the SDP in the 180 can change as long as the to- > tag > > is also changed. > > > > > > > > On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:13 AM, Emil Ivov <emcho@jitsi.org > > <mailto:emcho@jitsi.org>> wrote: > > > > > Hey all, > > > > > > Christer, Enrico and I are preparing the next version of > Trickle > > ICE for SIP. Now that discussions on BUNDLE and the plans seem to > be > > winding down, we wanted to run a few questions by the working > group. > > > > > > Q1: Making reliable provisional responses and PRACK mandatory. > > Obviously this would be nice to avoid, so the question is: is > there > > a reasonable mechanism to achieve this (and by reasonable, we > mean > > something that wouldn't be harder than implementing support for > PRACK). > > > > > > There was some discussion about this back in April and there > was > > a suggestion for implementing a 5245-style hack where the > answerer > > basically resends the 180 until it knows that it has been > received. > > > > > > 5245 uses connectivity checks for this (i.e. it stops 180 > > retransmissions when the first connectivity check is received) > but > > we don't have that option here since the 180 may contain either > none > > or only host candidates so there are strong chances that no > binding > > request would be received on them. > > > > > > Thomas also suggested a second option which would be to also > use > > INFO requests with trickled candidates as an indication that 180 > was > > received. This however wouldn't work with half trickle so we are > > basically back to vanilla ICE for all (non-re) INVITEs. > > > > > > Another option would be to mandate an INFO request with > > "end-of-candidates" in response to the 180, but that would be > just > > the same as mandating PRACK support. > > > > > > Thomas also suggested that the answerer can start sending > INFOs > > right after it sends its answer in the 180 and then it can just > > resend the 180 if the INFOs result in a 481 response. > > > > > > Personally I think this could potentially be made to work, but > it > > would imply a level of complexity that considerably exceeds PRACK > > support. > > > > > > Opinions? > > > > > > Q2: How do we send INFOs? Are they blocking or do we just send > > them in parallel? If the latter, then what happens when an INFO > > fails because it is received out of order? Do we just tell the > > application to resend the candidates asap? > > > > > > This also leads to the following question: > > > > > > Q3: What exactly do we send in INFOs? Just the latest batch of > > freshly learned candidates or all candidates we've learned so > far? > > Dale suggested that if we do this cumulatively we wouldn't need > to > > worry about the case with the out-of-order INFOs from Q2 since > the > > information gets resent anyway. A drawback here would obviously > be > > that this adds more complexity for trickle ICE users (WebRTC > > applications specifically) > > > > > > A third option would be to allow both and leave it to the > > application. > > > > > > Comments are most welcome! > > > > > > Emil > > > > > > -- > > > https://jitsi.org > > > _______________________________________________ > > > mmusic mailing list > > > mmusic@ietf.org <mailto:mmusic@ietf.org> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic > > > > _______________________________________________ > > mmusic mailing list > > mmusic@ietf.org <mailto:mmusic@ietf.org> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic > > > > > > -- > https://jitsi.org > _______________________________________________ > mmusic mailing list > mmusic@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Stach, Thomas
- [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Dan Wing
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Stach, Thomas
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Stach, Thomas
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Stach, Thomas
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Stach, Thomas
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Alan Johnston
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Parthasarathi R
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Vijaya Mandava (vimandav)
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Parthasarathi R
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Parthasarathi R
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Vijaya Mandava (vimandav)
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Parthasarathi R
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Stach, Thomas
- [MMUSIC] UPDATE vs INFO for SIP Trickle ICE [was … Parthasarathi R