Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-channel-sdpneg
Juergen Stoetzer-Bradler <juergen.stoetzer-bradler@nokia.com> Wed, 17 February 2016 13:14 UTC
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From: Juergen Stoetzer-Bradler <juergen.stoetzer-bradler@nokia.com>
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Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-channel-sdpneg
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Hi Paul, Christian, Flemming, Bo, Have just submitted version 08 of draft-ietf-mmusic-data-channel-sdpneg. The changes compared to version 07 are essentially as follows. * Two new paragraphs in section 5.1.2.1 (dcsa Attribute) regarding the relationship of subprotocols and their attributes. * Two new SDP offer/answer considerations in section 5.2.5 (Various SDP Offer/Answer Scenarios and Considerations) regarding unknown subprotocol attributes or known subprotocol attributes, whose data channel transport specific semantic is not known. * A new paragraph in section 8.1 (IANA Considerations / Subprotocol Identifiers) related to cases, where a subprotocol is defined for data channel and Websocket transport. These changes should address the points discussed in this email thread. Thank you, Juergen On 16.02.2016 14:01, Juergen Stoetzer-Bradler wrote: > Paul, > > Thanks for further feedback. Fully agree now that the subprotocol parameter should stay optional. > Will come back with with a proposal of how the sdpneg text could be enhanced as discussed. > > Thanks, > Juergen > > On 15.02.2016 17:08, EXT Paul Kyzivat wrote: >> On 2/14/16 5:48 AM, Juergen Stoetzer-Bradler wrote: >>> Paul, >>> >>> In your case 2) I would agree that the usage of dcsa embedded attributes >>> seems questionable. After all, the dcsa attribute is defined in sdpneg >>> as encapsulating a subprotocol specific attribute. If the subprotocol >>> may dynamically change over time without further (SDP offer/answer) >>> negotiation, then a negotiation of dcsa embedded attributes may indeed >>> not be very helpful. >>> >>> In your case 1), I am wondering how would the SDP answerer know which >>> subprotocol to use for which data channel, if the subprotocol id is not >>> added to the data channel's dmap attribute (at least if multiple data >>> channels are negotiated)? Conceivably via some provisioning, or via a >>> mutual understanding of a certain subprotocol to SCTP stream id mapping, >>> or via a certain a priori agreed label usage. I hadn't thought of such >>> cases when raising the question if the subprotocol should actually be >>> mandatory. >> >> IMO it could be any of those. But for this use case it seems more likely that channels will be >> opened dynamically rather than via SDP. >> >> I think the provision for *not* specifying the subprotocol was primarily to establish equivalence >> with what is possible via DCEP. >> >> One possibility is that SDP is used to specify how many channels are opened, with the >> understanding that each of them will use the same application-specific protocol. >> >> One possible use for dcsa with an unnamed protocol would be if the intent is to use a proprietary >> variant of a standard protocol, where there is still a desire to negotiate options using >> attributes applicable to that standard base protocol. But I'm really stretching to come up with >> this. >> >>> But such use cases would certainly go beyond a pure SDP offer/answer >>> negotiation use case and I would argue that such use cases would also go >>> beyond the scope of the sdpneg draft. >> >> Probably. >> >>> I could now imagine the sdpneg draft saying that an SDP offerer should >>> add a subprotocol identifier to an offered data channel's dcmap >>> attribute, if it also adds dcsa embedded subprotocol attributes. And >>> that an implementation would be on its own, if it does not follow that >>> recommendation (for whatever reasons). >> >> That could work. >> >>> Further, similar as for non-dcsa embedded attributes, we could >>> explicitly add text to the sdpneg draft saying that a recipient of an an >>> SDP offer or answer should ignore dcsa embedded attributes not only if >>> they are completely unknown, but also if their semantics related to the >>> subprotocol is not known. >>> (The current draft says in sec 5.2.3 that the SDP answerer "/Parses and >>> applies the SDP offer. Note that the typical parser normally ignores >>> unknown SDP attributes, which includes data channel related >>> attributes./" I think we could make this clearer and explicitly refer to >>> dcsa embedded subprotocol attributes.) >> >> Yes, that would help. >> >> Thanks, >> Paul >> >>> Thanks, >>> Juergen >>> >>> On 12.02.2016 17:58, EXT Paul Kyzivat wrote: >>>> Juergen, >>>> >>>> You bring up a point that perhaps needs further discussion: what does >>>> it mean when the subprotocol is not specified? >>>> >>>> IIUC there are at least a couple of reasons this might come about: >>>> >>>> 1) The protocol to be used is not standardized. There is no globally >>>> unique name for it. The two ends know what protocol to use based on >>>> context. >>>> >>>> 2) The protocol to be used on the channel is not determined via SDP >>>> negotiation. The applications want to establish the channel, and then >>>> dynamically decide what protocol to use with it. (And that protocol >>>> may change over time.) >>>> >>>> I guess that it still might be meaningful to use dcsa with (1), but >>>> there would be no way to determine by examination of the SDP whether >>>> the usage was compatible with the protocol. In this case the usage of >>>> the attributes would be "off label" - being adapted to the proprietary >>>> protocol in a way that hopefully the two ends agree. >>>> >>>> I don't see how dcsa makes much sense for (2). If you don't know what >>>> protocol will be used then how do you know what attributes to use? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Paul >>>> >>>> On 2/12/16 5:45 AM, Juergen Stoetzer-Bradler wrote: >>>>> Flemming, Paul, >>>>> >>>>> The current a=dcmap related text in >>>>> draft-ietf-mmusic-data-channel-sdpneg doesn't require that the >>>>> 'subprotocol' parameter must always be present - rather it is specified >>>>> as an optional parameter. Thus, current sdpneg text would allow to >>>>> create an SDP offer for a data channel, which contains one a=dcmap >>>>> attribute and potentially multiple a=dcsa attributes without the >>>>> subprotocol actually being given. Based on this discussion I am >>>>> wondering if the subprotocol parameter should actually be mandatory. >>>>> >>>>> In the specific case of MSRP, the msrp-usage-data-channel draft says in >>>>> 5.1.1.1 that the dcmap attribute includes the label and subprotocol >>>>> parameters. The current text could possible be made more explicit by >>>>> saying that the 'subprotocol="MSRP"' parameter must always be present. >>>>> Have just submitted version 04 of the msrp-usage-data-channel draft, >>>>> which proposes to add subprotocol identifier "MSRP" to the WebSocket >>>>> Subprotocol Name registry. This registry would then associate >>>>> subprotocol id "MSRP" with the msrp-usage-data-channel document. >>>>> There, in section 5.1.1.2 the MSRP specific usages of the a=dcsa >>>>> attribute are specified. And there the MSRP specific SDP attributes, >>>>> which can be dcsa embedded, are described. >>>>> 'setup' is an attribute, whose semantic changes when being dcsa embedded >>>>> and associated with subprotocol MSRP, as compared to the meaning of an >>>>> "a=setup" media level attribute of a TCP/MSRP m-line. Hence these >>>>> semantical differences are explicitly addressed in the >>>>> msrp-usage-data-channel draft. >>>>> >>>>> Regarding sdpneg, I also think that the current text in sdpneg seems to >>>>> be sufficient regarding the usage of dcsa encapsulated SDP attributes as >>>>> being bound to the data channel's subprotocol. But as the semantic of a >>>>> dcsa encapsulated attribute may be subprotocol specific (like 'setup'), >>>>> I'd now tend to consider the subprotocol parameter in the dcmap >>>>> attribute as being mandatory, as mentioned above. As already discussed, >>>>> the Websocket subprotocol registry would then refer to the document, >>>>> which specifies the subprotocol specific usage of dcsa encapsulated >>>>> parameters. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Juergen >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 11.02.2016 21:52, Flemming Andreasen wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 2/8/16 12:09 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote: >>>>>>> On 2/8/16 11:09 AM, Flemming Andreasen wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 2/6/16 1:44 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 2/4/16 10:43 PM, Christian Groves wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Isn't this the approach we're taking today? >>>>>>>>>> draft-ietf-mmusic-data-channel-sdpneg has general text and specific >>>>>>>>>> drafts are used to describe protocols that use the mechanism (i.e. >>>>>>>>>> draft-ietf-mmusic-msrp-usage-data-channel & >>>>>>>>>> draft-ietf-clue-datachannel). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It remains to be seen if that will be enough. E.g., there currently >>>>>>>>> aren't any iana considerations in >>>>>>>>> draft-ietf-mmusic-msrp-usage-data-channel. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Suppose I encounter some sdp that uses msrp over a data channel, but >>>>>>>>> that usage is unknown to me. How do I find the spec (the >>>>>>>>> reference to >>>>>>>>> draft-ietf-mmusic-msrp-usage-data-channel) that defines that usage? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I would like to think that the iana registries will allow me to >>>>>>>>> trace >>>>>>>>> back to the relevant specs. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> No disagreement on that part, however having taken another look at >>>>>>>> both >>>>>>>> sdpneg and the msrp-usage documents, I still don't agree with your >>>>>>>> original request for all (existing and new) attributes to specify how >>>>>>>> they may or may not be used with the dcsa attribute defined by >>>>>>>> sdpneg. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As Christian noted, the sub-protocol specifics are defined in >>>>>>>> individual >>>>>>>> documents (like msrp-usage), which calls your the parameters that >>>>>>>> are at >>>>>>>> least needed to be supported for that usage. Taking MSRP as an >>>>>>>> example, >>>>>>>> why isn't that enough, and how do you see the resulting set of >>>>>>>> attributes that may or may not be used with MSRP differ between use >>>>>>>> in a >>>>>>>> data-channel (and hence encapsulated in dcsa) or as a regular media >>>>>>>> stream ? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Based on this discussion, I conclude that it should be sufficient for >>>>>>> this draft to say that before an attribute can be used with dcsa, >>>>>>> such usage must be defined somewhere. This could be either: >>>>>>> - as part of the definition of the attribute, OR >>>>>>> - as part of the definition of the protocol referenced on the m-line. >>>>>>> >>>>>> We are getting closer, but it's still not obvious to me that you >>>>>> cannot use an attribute with dcsa if it has not been explicitly >>>>>> defined for the attribute in question. Clearly, there are attributes >>>>>> that wouldn't make sense over data channels, just like there are >>>>>> attributes that don't make sense over particular media descriptions. >>>>>> >>>>>> Again, I'd like to hear from more people on this, including the >>>>>> authors. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks >>>>>> >>>>>> -- Flemming >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> Paul >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Also, it would be good to hear from more people on this, including >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> document authors. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- Flemming >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>> Paul >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Regards, Christian >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 4/02/2016 3:58 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On 2/3/16 5:42 PM, Flemming Andreasen wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not concerned about the IANA part. I agree that *if* we >>>>>>>>>>>> need to >>>>>>>>>>>> expliclty specify attribute interactions for "dcsa", then it >>>>>>>>>>>> should be >>>>>>>>>>>> part of the IANA registry. What I am not agreeing with at this >>>>>>>>>>>> point is >>>>>>>>>>>> that there is indeed a need to explicitly speficy these >>>>>>>>>>>> interactions as >>>>>>>>>>>> opposed to relying on a more general algorithmic approach >>>>>>>>>>>> (plus the >>>>>>>>>>>> offerer being responsible for generating a valid offer if he >>>>>>>>>>>> wants to >>>>>>>>>>>> establish a data channel). >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Well, an obvious one is that the protocol(s) the attribute >>>>>>>>>>> pertains to >>>>>>>>>>> need to be defined to work over data channels. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>> Paul >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> mmusic mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> mmusic@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> mmusic mailing list >>>>>>>>>> mmusic@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> mmusic mailing list >>>>>>>>> mmusic@ietf.org >>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic >>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> mmusic mailing list >>>>>>> mmusic@ietf.org >>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > >
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Christian Groves
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-channel-… Bo Burman
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Christian Groves
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Juergen Stoetzer-Bradler
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Christian Groves
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Juergen Stoetzer-Bradler
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Christian Groves
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Juergen Stoetzer-Bradler
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Christian Groves
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Christian Groves
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Christian Groves
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Juergen Stoetzer-Bradler
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Juergen Stoetzer-Bradler
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Juergen Stoetzer-Bradler
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Christian Groves
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Juergen Stoetzer-Bradler
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Juergen Stoetzer-Bradler
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Juergen Stoetzer-Bradler
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Juergen Stoetzer-Bradler
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Juergen Stoetzer-Bradler
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Juergen Stoetzer-Bradler
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Christian Groves
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Christian Groves
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Juergen Stoetzer-Bradler
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Christian Groves
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Schwarz, Albrecht (Nokia - DE)
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Juergen Stoetzer-Bradler
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Christian Groves
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Juergen Stoetzer-Bradler
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Christian Groves
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Juergen Stoetzer-Bradler
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Christian Groves
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Juergen Stoetzer-Bradler
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat