Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions
Emil Ivov <emcho@jitsi.org> Wed, 24 July 2013 10:01 UTC
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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 12:01:01 +0200
From: Emil Ivov <emcho@jitsi.org>
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To: Alan Johnston <alan.b.johnston@gmail.com>
References: <51D43186.2010907@jitsi.org> <C5E08FE080ACFD4DAE31E4BDBF944EB1136080A7@xmb-aln-x02.cisco.com> <CAKhHsXH5+58am748qLsojC_kzdgfEpkEy5GM_XTRN5MPMMVWcw@mail.gmail.com>
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Cc: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" <fluffy@cisco.com>, MMUSIC IETF WG <mmusic@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions
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Hey Alan, Cullen, On 24.07.13, 11:45, Alan Johnston wrote: > Agree with Cullen - if there is a reasonable approach (such as > retransmitting 180) that avoids PRACK, then we should use this approach. There is one and it comes down to requiring the remote side to send an INFO request as soon as it gets it. The INFO request could contain trickled candidates (in the case of full trickle) or just end-of-candidates (in the case of half-trickle). This could work and, personally, I have no issue with it. I believe the suggestion that Christer made was: given how the above basically works as a PRACK minus the O/A and given how the O/A in PRACKs seems to be a deal breaker for many, then we might want to generalize the above mechanism so that other specs can also use it. Cheers, Emil > - Alan - > > > On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 11:28 PM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) > <fluffy@cisco.com <mailto:fluffy@cisco.com>> wrote: > > > I prefer the 180 resend approach and all the right things are > already looking at them. I have always objected to mandating use of > PRACK. Obviously I'm fine with things that have PRACK can use it but > I want some solution for things that don't. > > One small note, the SDP in the 180 can change as long as the to-tag > is also changed. > > > > On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:13 AM, Emil Ivov <emcho@jitsi.org > <mailto:emcho@jitsi.org>> wrote: > > > Hey all, > > > > Christer, Enrico and I are preparing the next version of Trickle > ICE for SIP. Now that discussions on BUNDLE and the plans seem to be > winding down, we wanted to run a few questions by the working group. > > > > Q1: Making reliable provisional responses and PRACK mandatory. > Obviously this would be nice to avoid, so the question is: is there > a reasonable mechanism to achieve this (and by reasonable, we mean > something that wouldn't be harder than implementing support for PRACK). > > > > There was some discussion about this back in April and there was > a suggestion for implementing a 5245-style hack where the answerer > basically resends the 180 until it knows that it has been received. > > > > 5245 uses connectivity checks for this (i.e. it stops 180 > retransmissions when the first connectivity check is received) but > we don't have that option here since the 180 may contain either none > or only host candidates so there are strong chances that no binding > request would be received on them. > > > > Thomas also suggested a second option which would be to also use > INFO requests with trickled candidates as an indication that 180 was > received. This however wouldn't work with half trickle so we are > basically back to vanilla ICE for all (non-re) INVITEs. > > > > Another option would be to mandate an INFO request with > "end-of-candidates" in response to the 180, but that would be just > the same as mandating PRACK support. > > > > Thomas also suggested that the answerer can start sending INFOs > right after it sends its answer in the 180 and then it can just > resend the 180 if the INFOs result in a 481 response. > > > > Personally I think this could potentially be made to work, but it > would imply a level of complexity that considerably exceeds PRACK > support. > > > > Opinions? > > > > Q2: How do we send INFOs? Are they blocking or do we just send > them in parallel? If the latter, then what happens when an INFO > fails because it is received out of order? Do we just tell the > application to resend the candidates asap? > > > > This also leads to the following question: > > > > Q3: What exactly do we send in INFOs? Just the latest batch of > freshly learned candidates or all candidates we've learned so far? > Dale suggested that if we do this cumulatively we wouldn't need to > worry about the case with the out-of-order INFOs from Q2 since the > information gets resent anyway. A drawback here would obviously be > that this adds more complexity for trickle ICE users (WebRTC > applications specifically) > > > > A third option would be to allow both and leave it to the > application. > > > > Comments are most welcome! > > > > Emil > > > > -- > > https://jitsi.org > > _______________________________________________ > > mmusic mailing list > > mmusic@ietf.org <mailto:mmusic@ietf.org> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic > > _______________________________________________ > mmusic mailing list > mmusic@ietf.org <mailto:mmusic@ietf.org> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic > > -- https://jitsi.org
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Stach, Thomas
- [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Dan Wing
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Stach, Thomas
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Stach, Thomas
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Stach, Thomas
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Stach, Thomas
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Alan Johnston
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Parthasarathi R
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Vijaya Mandava (vimandav)
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Parthasarathi R
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Parthasarathi R
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Vijaya Mandava (vimandav)
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Parthasarathi R
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Stach, Thomas
- [MMUSIC] UPDATE vs INFO for SIP Trickle ICE [was … Parthasarathi R