Re: [MMUSIC] Connection Data Capability (ccap) and IP-addresses (draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-miscellaneous-caps-04)
Flemming Andreasen <fandreas@cisco.com> Sat, 13 April 2013 00:39 UTC
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Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 20:39:39 -0400
From: Flemming Andreasen <fandreas@cisco.com>
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Cc: "jonathan@vidyo.com" <jonathan@vidyo.com>, "mmusic@ietf.org" <mmusic@ietf.org>, "christer.holmberg@ericsson.com" <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Connection Data Capability (ccap) and IP-addresses (draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-miscellaneous-caps-04)
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On 4/12/13 11:39 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: > Hi Simo, > > I'm in favor of restricting the alternative address to PSTN. Can you elaborate on why ? We have defined a generic connection data capability as part of a general capability negotiation framework. What's the point of that if the only value it can convey is PSTN ? Thanks -- Flemming > This is coherent whit your first bullet below. > > If you share the text changes you are proposing, this would be more easier to review. > > Thanks for taking care of this issue. > > Cheers, > Med > >> -----Message d'origine----- >> De : mmusic-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mmusic-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de >> Simo.Veikkolainen@nokia.com >> Envoyé : lundi 8 avril 2013 08:35 >> À : fandreas@cisco.com; aallen@blackberry.com; HKaplan@acmepacket.com >> Cc : jonathan@vidyo.com; mmusic@ietf.org; christer.holmberg@ericsson.com >> Objet : Re: [MMUSIC] Connection Data Capability (ccap) and IP-addresses >> (draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-miscellaneous-caps-04) >> >> Recapping the discussion so far: >> >> >> - ICE is the way to negotiate between different IP addresses. There seems >> to be no disagreement here. >> >> - since no alternative port number can be expressed, in practice the IN >> address needs to go to the actual configuration (address in the c= line and >> port number in the m= line), and the alternative PSTN address in the >> potential configurations. Also here, there seems to be no disagreement. >> >> - then, whether the "ccap" attribute should be limited to carry only PSTN >> addresses, or also other types. I'm with Flemming on this one; SDP capneg >> framework is already fragmented enough, and limiting the connection address >> capability to PSTN addresses only would again be targeted for a single use >> case only, whereas we should strive for general solutions. >> >> Simo >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: mmusic-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mmusic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of >> ext Flemming Andreasen >> Sent: 25. maaliskuuta 2013 3:32 >> To: Andrew Allen >> Cc: jonathan@vidyo.com; mmusic@ietf.org; christer.holmberg@ericsson.com >> Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Connection Data Capability (ccap) and IP-addresses >> (draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-miscellaneous-caps-04) >> >> >> On 3/24/13 1:33 PM, Andrew Allen wrote: >>> There is also nothing that prevents people from defining their own >> proprietary attributes to do such a thing but that is not part of an IETF >> standard and is not approved usage. >> Agreed. >> >>> If we really feel the need to discourage further such usage I suppose we >> could add some text stating that if CCAP s received containing an IN net >> type and an IN net type is present in the corresponding Connection >> Attribute then the CCAP attribute MUST be ignored. >> I think that gets complicated quickly for a questionable gain. I'd >> prefer the "MUST NOT" described below with an explanation as to why it's >> there; as you note, ultimately people either decide to be spec compliant >> or not. >> >> -- Flemming >>> That way compliant implementations would not perfom the discouraged >> behavior. >>> Andrew >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Flemming Andreasen [mailto:fandreas@cisco.com] >>> Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2013 10:39 AM Central Standard Time >>> To: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> >>> Cc: Jonathan Lennox <jonathan@vidyo.com>; mmusic@ietf.org >> <mmusic@ietf.org> >>> Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Connection Data Capability (ccap) and IP- >> addresses (draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-miscellaneous-caps-04) >>> >>> On 3/23/13 5:24 AM, Christer Holmberg wrote: >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> In general I agree that having multiple ways of doing the same thing is >> not a good thing, and I don't have any strong feelings regarding the ccap >> usage. >>>> But, no matter what we say, what would actually prevent people from >> using ccap, in the same way they are using ANAT and altc? :) >>> There's no port signaling capability with ccap, but other than that, the >>> only thing that prevents people from using this to signal alternative >>> IP-addresses is the existence of a "MUST NOT" in the spec. >>> >>> -- Flemming >>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Christer >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> From: mmusic-bounces@ietf.org [mmusic-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of >> Jonathan Lennox [jonathan@vidyo.com] >>>> Sent: Friday, 22 March 2013 10:00 PM >>>> To: Flemming Andreasen >>>> Cc: mmusic@ietf.org >>>> Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Connection Data Capability (ccap) and IP- >> addresses (draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-miscellaneous-caps-04) >>>> Currently, the deployed SIP world has three mechanisms to allow some >> flavor of negotiation among multiple IP addresses: ICE, altc (despite the >> general disapproval of the working group), and ANAT (despite its >> deprecation). >>>> I think that adding ccap as a fourth member of this set would be a >> terrible idea; and as far as I can tell, no one wants to do that. So we >> need to make it clear that that it MUST NOT be used for that purpose. >>>> In the formulation below, I think I'd say that a given media description >> MUST NOT indicate more than one address with an IN network type, across all >> its configurations (actual and potential). >>>> Obviously, different media descriptions (m= line blocks) can have >> different addresses. >>>> In practice, given the port number issue that started this thread, I >> suspect this means that the SDP offer will need to put the IN address in >> the actual configuration (in the c= line), and the PSTN address(es) will be >> in the potential configurations. >>>> On Mar 22, 2013, at 2:37 PM, Flemming Andreasen wrote: >>>> >>>>> Still waiting for more comments on this, especially from the people >> that >>>>> were very vocal in their complaints previously: Now is the time to >> speak up. >>>>> Regardless, a few comments on the below: >>>>> 1) It allows the use of "ccap" to be used to indicate one or more "IP4" >>>>> addresses in a given SDP. >>>>> 2) It allows the use of "ccap" to be used to indicate one or more "IP6" >>>>> addresses in a given SDP. >>>>> >>>>> Nit-picking a bit on the actual text, which I think is important: >>>>> The "ccap" attribute is not what is being to select between different >>>>> IP-addresses; the use of a "ccap" attribute in a potential >> configuration >>>>> ("pcfg") is what is being used for this. Is the restriction that we >> want >>>>> here: >>>>> a) A potential configuration MUST NOT reference more than one "ccap" >>>>> attribute with a network type of "IN" ? >>>>> b) All potential configurations for a particular media description MUST >>>>> NOT reference more than one "ccap" attribute with a network type of >> "IN" ? >>>>> c) Something else ? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks >>>>> >>>>> -- Flemming >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 3/22/13 1:35 AM, Andrew Allen wrote: >>>>>> I am OK with either of these proposals >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: mmusic-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mmusic-bounces@ietf.org] On >> Behalf Of Simo.Veikkolainen@nokia.com >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 5:57 AM >>>>>> To: fandreas@cisco.com; mmusic@ietf.org >>>>>> Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Connection Data Capability (ccap) and IP- >> addresses (draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-miscellaneous-caps-04) >>>>>> I went through the discussion, and my reading is that there is >> agreement on not allowing ccap to be used for alternative IP address >> negotiation. >>>>>> That could be made clear in the text e.g. by modifying the second >> sentence Flemming quoted to read: >>>>>> <quote> >>>>>> The 'ccap' attribute MUST NOT be used to select >>>>>> between different IP connection addresses (e.g. between >>>>>> "IP4" and "IP6" address families or different IP addresses >>>>>> within the same IP address family). >>>>>> </quote> >>>>>> >>>>>> The ccap attribute should be able to carry either an IP or PSTN >> address; that way either a PSTN or an IP bearer could be offered as the >> highest priority configuration (in the "m=" line). However, if we want to >> clarify the intended use of ccap, we could modify the first sentence to >> read: >>>>>> <quote> >>>>>> The 'ccap' capability attribute is intended for offering >>>>>> alternative connection addresses where the <nettype> >>>>>> is "IN" or "PSTN", i.e. selecting between an IP based >>>>>> bearer or a circuit-switched bearer. >>>>>> </quote> >>>>>> >>>>>> Simo >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: mmusic-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mmusic-bounces@ietf.org] On >> Behalf Of ext Flemming Andreasen >>>>>> Sent: 19. maaliskuuta 2013 8:24 >>>>>> To: mmusic >>>>>> Subject: [MMUSIC] Connection Data Capability (ccap) and IP-addresses >> (draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-miscellaneous-caps-04) >>>>>> Greetings >>>>>> >>>>>> As you may have seen, there has recently been some list discussion on >> the "connection data capability" defined in >>>>>> draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-miscellaneous-caps-04 (see e.g. thread in >>>>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/mmusic/current/msg10472.html) >>>>>> >>>>>> To recap, the connection data capability ("ccap") provides capability >> negotiation capabilities for what amounts to the "c=" line in regular SDP, >> and as such enables negotiation of network type (such as "IN") and IP- >> address information (v4 and v6 addresses). The Standards Track mechanism >> for negotiating and determining alternative IP-address information today is >> ICE, and hence the draft currently includes the following wording: >>>>>> <quote> >>>>>> The 'ccap' capability attribute is intended to >>>>>> be used only when there is no other mechanism available for >>>>>> negotiating alternative connection address information, such as >> when >>>>>> the <nettype> is different among the alternative addresses (e.g. >>>>>> "IN" and "PSTN"). The 'ccap' attribute MUST NOT be used in >>>>>> situations where an existing mechanism (such as Interactive >>>>>> Connectivity Establishment (ICE) [RFC5245]) can be used to >> select >>>>>> between different connection addresses (e.g. "IP4" and "IP6" or >>>>>> different IP addresses within the same IP address family). >>>>>> </quoted> >>>>>> >>>>>> The above text has led to some confusion as to exactly when and what >> "ccap" can be used for. More specifically, is it/should it ever be allowed >> to use "ccap" to convey an IP4 or IP6 address, and if so, under what >> circumstances ? >>>>>> If you have an opinion, please let us know. >>>>>> >>>>>> A couple of points to keep in mind: >>>>>> - The current document has been WGLC'ed without comment ~6 months ago. >>>>>> - 3GPP has a dependency on the document (however I'm not sure if that >> dependency includes the above "IN" feature) >>>>>> - The connection data capability is defined in a general manner to be >> generally useful in line with the overall capability negotiation framework >> (as opposed to targeted at one specific use case with one specific value) >>>>>> - There are scenarios where ICE cannot be used, even if implemented >> (e.g. ice-mismatch). >>>>>> - RFC 6849 (media loopback) provides for NAT traversal in the absence >> of ICE support >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks >>>>>> >>>>>> -- Flemming >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> mmusic mailing list >>>>>> mmusic@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> mmusic mailing list >>>>>> mmusic@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic >>>>>> >>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> This transmission (including any attachments) may contain confidential >> information, privileged material (including material protected by the >> solicitor-client or other applicable privileges), or constitute non-public >> information. Any use of this information by anyone other than the intended >> recipient is prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, >> please immediately reply to the sender and delete this information from >> your system. Use, dissemination, distribution, or reproduction of this >> transmission by unintended recipients is not authorized and may be >> unlawful. >>>>>> . >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> mmusic mailing list >>>>> mmusic@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> Jonathan Lennox >>>> jonathan@vidyo.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> mmusic mailing list >>>> mmusic@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic >>>> . >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> mmusic mailing list >>> mmusic@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> This transmission (including any attachments) may contain confidential >> information, privileged material (including material protected by the >> solicitor-client or other applicable privileges), or constitute non-public >> information. Any use of this information by anyone other than the intended >> recipient is prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, >> please immediately reply to the sender and delete this information from >> your system. Use, dissemination, distribution, or reproduction of this >> transmission by unintended recipients is not authorized and may be >> unlawful. >>> . >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> mmusic mailing list >> mmusic@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic >> _______________________________________________ >> mmusic mailing list >> mmusic@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic > . >
- [MMUSIC] Connection Data Capability (ccap) and IP… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] Connection Data Capability (ccap) an… Andrew Allen
- Re: [MMUSIC] Connection Data Capability (ccap) an… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [MMUSIC] Connection Data Capability (ccap) an… Simo.Veikkolainen
- Re: [MMUSIC] Connection Data Capability (ccap) an… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] Connection Data Capability (ccap) an… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] Connection Data Capability (ccap) an… Stach, Thomas
- Re: [MMUSIC] Connection Data Capability (ccap) an… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Connection Data Capability (ccap) an… Andrew Allen
- Re: [MMUSIC] Connection Data Capability (ccap) an… Andrew Allen
- Re: [MMUSIC] Connection Data Capability (ccap) an… Andrew Allen
- Re: [MMUSIC] Connection Data Capability (ccap) an… Jonathan Lennox
- Re: [MMUSIC] Connection Data Capability (ccap) an… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Connection Data Capability (ccap) an… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] Connection Data Capability (ccap) an… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [MMUSIC] Connection Data Capability (ccap) an… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [MMUSIC] Connection Data Capability (ccap) an… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [MMUSIC] Connection Data Capability (ccap) an… Andrew Allen
- Re: [MMUSIC] Connection Data Capability (ccap) an… Andrew Allen
- Re: [MMUSIC] Connection Data Capability (ccap) an… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] Connection Data Capability (ccap) an… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] Connection Data Capability (ccap) an… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] Connection Data Capability (ccap) an… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [MMUSIC] Connection Data Capability (ccap) an… Simo.Veikkolainen
- Re: [MMUSIC] Connection Data Capability (ccap) an… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] Connection Data Capability (ccap) an… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [MMUSIC] Connection Data Capability (ccap) an… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] Connection Data Capability (ccap) an… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [MMUSIC] Connection Data Capability (ccap) an… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] Connection Data Capability (ccap) an… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [MMUSIC] Connection Data Capability (ccap) an… Simo.Veikkolainen
- Re: [MMUSIC] Connection Data Capability (ccap) an… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] Connection Data Capability (ccap) an… Simo.Veikkolainen
- Re: [MMUSIC] Connection Data Capability (ccap) an… Simo.Veikkolainen
- [MMUSIC] Last chance to comment: Re: Connection D… Flemming Andreasen