Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-data-channel - language indication
Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> Mon, 26 August 2019 11:21 UTC
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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: Gunnar Hellström <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>, "mmusic@ietf.org" <mmusic@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-data-channel - language indication
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Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 11:21:52 +0000
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Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-data-channel - language indication
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Hi, > I have met people who communicate with email in Esperanto. So Esperanto > is used. But if you want to have a more common language in the example, > you may exchange eo with for example it for Italian. I am fine using Esperanto. Maybe my old teacher will read the draft and remember me :) --- > I just discovered in the draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel draft section > 6.4 that the "label" is supposed to be identical in the offar and > answer. We agreed to insert text somewhere that "label" can be used to > indicate source. With the requirement that it shall be identical, it is > only half true that it can indicate source. I forgot where we had that > wording, so please check its relevance while you edit the resulting > modifications. If we want to change the identical requirement we need to raise it in RTCWEB. It's probably a good idea to also ask them if they think 'label' is good for indicating source in the first place. Regards, Christer Den 2019-08-26 kl. 11:28, skrev Christer Holmberg: > Hi Gunnar, > > 12. At the end of 3.2, add the following about language negotiation > > ... > >>>> I don't think we need to say anything how to specify. draft-data-channel-sdpneg defines how to convey >>>> SDP attributes in the dsca attribute, and 8873 defines the format of the hdland-send/recv attributes. >>>> We could include an example instead. >>> Yes. >> >> Proposal: >> >> Change 3.3. header from Example to Examples >> >> Add at the end of 3.3 the following: >> >> >> Another example is an offer for a T.140 data channel from an >> organisation offering real-time text conversation in Spanish and >> Esperanto, and an answer accepting Esperanto. >> >> Offer: >> >> m=application 911 UDP/DTLS/SCTP webrtc-datachannel >> c=IN IP6 2001:db8::3 >> a=max-message-size:1000 >> a=sctp-port 5000 >> a=dcmap:1 label="ACME customer service";subprotocol="t140" >> a=dcsa:1 fmtp:- >> a=dsca:1 hlang-send:es eo >> a=dsca:1 hlang-recv:es eo >> >> Answer: >> >> m=application 911 UDP/DTLS/SCTP webrtc-datachannel >> c=IN IP6 2001:db8::3 >> a=max-message-size:1000 >> a=sctp-port 5000 >> a=dcmap:1 label="ACME customer service";subprotocol="t140" >> a=dcsa:1 fmtp:- >> a=dsca:1 hlang-send:eo >> a=dsca:1 hlang-recv:eo >> >> (Christer, can you please insert the variations needed in the answer to >> make it a realistic example of offer - answer.) > > If we want to keep it realistic, should we really use Esperanto? :) > > One of my teachers in high school was a big fan of Esperanto, and claimed that it will take over English as the number one world language. But, that was only 30 years ago, so I guess there is still time :) > > --- > > 12a: Allow use of hlang- attributes together with m=application media declarations > > ... > >>>>> The problem is that we are not defining usage of the lang attributes, and modality, for the 'application/webrtc-datachannel' media type: >>>>> we are defining modality and usage of the attributes for a specific data channel. >>>>> >>>>> So, maybe something like: >>>>> >>>>> "This document updates RFC 8373, by defining how the SDP hlang-send and hlang-recv attributes are used for >>>>> the "application/webrtc-datachannel" media type. >>>>> >>>>> SDP endpoints MUST NOT include the attributes directly in the m= section associated with the >>>>> 'application/webrtc-datachannel' media type. Instead, the attributes MUST be associated with >>>>> individual data channels, using the SDP dcsa attribute. A specification that defines a subprotocol >>>>> that uses the attributes MUST specify the modality for that subprotocol. >>>>> >>>>> For T.140 data channels the modality is 'written'." >>>> >>>> This works for the T140 data channel, but another subprotocol may be >>>> able to carry more than one media type and therefore have some other >>>> indication of what media type is used. An example is the msrp data >>>> channel that can carry messages with different modalities. >>> >>> Sure, and the text says that each subprotocol specification need to define what the modality is. >>> >>> (Of course, it would have been great if 8373 would have defined a way to explicitly indicate the modality, instead of implicitly retrieve it from the media type.) >> Agreed. It was discussed but not included in the final result. > I think anything "implicit" should be forbidden in IETF standards - it always creates problems sooner or later.... > > >>> So, yes, it is tempting to say that we extend RFC 8373 in general, but > >>> we can do in in a fully specified way only for the T140 data channel. > >>> > >>> How would you express that? > >> Using the suggested text above :) > >> > >> - It updates 8373 by allowing usage of the lang attributes for application/webrtc-datachannel media types. > >> - It updates draft-data-channel-sdpneg, by indicating that the modality must be defined for each data channel that > >> uses the lang attributes. In draft-t140-data-channel we then define the modality for T.140 data channels. > > > > Yes, I agree, it can be read your way. > > > > But I read "A specification that defines a subprotocol that uses the > > attributes MUST specify the modality for that subprotocol." as if only > > one modality was tied to a specific subprotocol identity. > > > > Can we change the sentence to "A specification that defines a > > subprotocol that uses the attributes MUST specify how the modality is > > deducted for languages used with that subprotocol." > > Will fix. > > Regards, > > Christer > > > > Regards > > Gunnar > > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > mmusic mailing list > > mmusic@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic > > -- > ----------------------------------------- > Gunnar Hellström > Omnitor > gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se > +46 708 204 288 > > > > _______________________________________________ > mmusic mailing list > mmusic@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic -- ----------------------------------------- Gunnar Hellström Omnitor gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se +46 708 204 288
- [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-us… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Belling, Thomas (Nokia - DE/Munich)
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… R.Jesske
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-data-ch… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Roni Even (A)
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Roni Even (A)
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Roni Even (A)
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Roni Even (A)
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Paul Kyzivat