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Re: [MMUSIC] Partial Offer/Partial Answer draft - MIME type value

Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> Sun, 20 October 2013 20:38 UTC

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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: Emil Ivov <emcho@jitsi.org>
Thread-Topic: VS: [MMUSIC] Partial Offer/Partial Answer draft - MIME type value
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Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2013 20:38:10 +0000
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References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C4C2F3D@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <5261AAF0.3030509@alum.mit.edu> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C4C34F9@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <CAPvvaa+0MgAT7Svw47zFRZUdjAEGDU=72yAqwxY_cnEb9ZhUww@mail.gmail.com> <5261C314.8020001@alum.mit.edu> <CAPvvaaJuVfeW4jbY0Ayxxm32rbHTD-GwT+YhRgo5xh380=Y-yA@mail.gmail.com> <h7ciobmuoh8ivvljnya8r8t9.1382163037289@email.android.com> <CAPvvaaJWSoKKwn_h84yDsZ6BgD=QPS9ERPvSskzWvn_x1Bju1w@mail.gmail.com> <yv22u8tdcxanwt643ccmsn7t.1382197429573@email.android.com> <CAPvvaaJFrWFsov5v4zMWOnzex_foF1Zy-0V1iYyXdWwMW3C5aQ@mail.gmail.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C4D6F06@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <CAPvvaa+4QOhBqmot-jTGwkCdh_5icLHy5KjUjHvwhWPZW_KKHw@mail.gmail.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C4D8F8A@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <CAPvvaaJ3+LnhXeph3HWuTdV+A5sM7FdGgDwuhMkzc6qT7fAjqQ@mail.gmail.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C4DA0FA@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <52642EB8.3060203@nostrum.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C4DDC7D@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <CAPvvaa+qtghsTBLN_pnmJsXeLWfJcJXQnbgv6fBNc1iq+pYnoQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAPvvaaJ4Ak+ejoHXHDL4b_1397VzAdTX2ep46gaHNCddrf_Lag@mail.gmail.com>
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Cc: mmusic <mmusic@ietf.org>, Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Partial Offer/Partial Answer draft - MIME type value
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Hi Emil,

No matter whether you consider the ICE state (including the candidates) part of the SDP session state or not, SDP session modification requests (read: SDP Offers and Answers) DO impact the ICE State, as Offers and Answers can be used to carry candidates.

Regards,

Christer

Lähettäjä: Emil Ivov [mailto:emcho@jitsi.org]
Lähetetty: 20. lokakuuta 2013 23:23
Vastaanottaja: Christer Holmberg
Kopio: Paul Kyzivat; Adam Roach; mmusic
Aihe: Re: VS: [MMUSIC] Partial Offer/Partial Answer draft - MIME type value


One more thought:

Please understand that trickle ICE is NOT a session modification. Please try to isolate the SDP syntax that it uses from general O/A. It is not part of it.

Think of it as JSON if that would make thinks easier.

Emil

--sent from my mobile
On 20 Oct 2013 22:18, "Emil Ivov" <emcho@jitsi.org<mailto:emcho@jitsi.org>> wrote:

Christer, "I tried to explain" to you that what you are saying has been addressed and cannot happen. If you believe that there is a specific situation that is still possible and is a problem, then please describe that rather than continuing to suggest that things don't work without any valid arguments whatsoever.

--sent from my mobile
On 20 Oct 2013 21:50, "Christer Holmberg" <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com<mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>> wrote:

Hi,

>> Example:
>>
>> 1. Alice sends an SDP Offer to Bob.
>>
>> 2. Bob sends the SDP Answer to Alice, with candidates A, B and C.
>>
>> 3. After that, Bob sends, using trickle ICE, candidates D and E to Alice.
>>
>> If Alice receives the SDP Answer first, and then the trickle ICE request, she will assume that Bob first provided candidates A, B and C (in the SDP Answer), and then added D and E (in the trickle ICE request).
>>
>> If Alice receives the trickle ICE request first, and then the SDP Answer
>
> Don't do that then.
>
> It's been pretty clear from the start that any session *modification* mechanism that does not also contain the full session state completely falls apart in the face of unordered delivery. This is a fundamental information problem, and you aren't going to write rules that somehow cause it not to be true.
>
> We haven't yet tackled how to send trickle ICE in SIP, much less partial offers and partial answers. When we do, the only way it's going to have any chance of working at all is by requiring ordered delivery.

I totally agree, and my opinion (which I tried to explain to Emil) is that it applies also to candidates.

Regards,

Christer

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