Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions
"Stach, Thomas" <thomas.stach@siemens-enterprise.com> Tue, 09 July 2013 21:20 UTC
Return-Path: <thomas.stach@siemens-enterprise.com>
X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C625111E8156 for <mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 9 Jul 2013 14:20:48 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.399
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.200, BAYES_00=-2.599]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1cZzruPPmcIK for <mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 9 Jul 2013 14:20:44 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from senmx11-mx.siemens-enterprise.com (senmx11-mx.siemens-enterprise.com [62.134.46.9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0521821F9D3A for <mmusic@ietf.org>; Tue, 9 Jul 2013 14:20:43 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from MCHP02HTC.global-ad.net (unknown [172.29.42.235]) by senmx11-mx.siemens-enterprise.com (Server) with ESMTP id CD48D1EB8457; Tue, 9 Jul 2013 23:20:30 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from MCHP04MSX.global-ad.net ([169.254.1.137]) by MCHP02HTC.global-ad.net ([172.29.42.235]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Tue, 9 Jul 2013 23:20:30 +0200
From: "Stach, Thomas" <thomas.stach@siemens-enterprise.com>
To: Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu>, "mmusic@ietf.org" <mmusic@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions
Thread-Index: AQHOd/eUM0XqJDBgnkG3edAtUHILLJlUd8BAgAGKMgCABH+3wIAAU2UAgAIHq9A=
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2013 21:20:29 +0000
Message-ID: <F81CEE99482EFE438DAE2A652361EE12114A31B0@MCHP04MSX.global-ad.net>
References: <51D43186.2010907@jitsi.org> <F81CEE99482EFE438DAE2A652361EE12114A0200@MCHP04MSX.global-ad.net> <51D6D456.7090900@jitsi.org> <F81CEE99482EFE438DAE2A652361EE12114A1127@MCHP04MSX.global-ad.net> <51DAE06C.1030203@alum.mit.edu>
In-Reply-To: <51DAE06C.1030203@alum.mit.edu>
Accept-Language: de-AT, en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
x-originating-ip: [172.29.42.225]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions
X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group <mmusic.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/mmusic>, <mailto:mmusic-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/mmusic>
List-Post: <mailto:mmusic@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:mmusic-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic>, <mailto:mmusic-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2013 21:20:48 -0000
> -----Original Message----- > From: mmusic-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mmusic-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Paul Kyzivat > Sent: Monday, 08 July, 2013 17:53 > To: mmusic@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions > > Thomas, > > On 7/8/13 5:24 AM, Stach, Thomas wrote: > > > [TS] Saving the half RTT is not my primary goal. When implementing > ICE we got away without requiring PRACK. > > I want to keep this property, since it allows [TS] The remainder of the sentence got lost. It should have read "... since it allows easier introduction RTCWEB client with trickle ICE into a SIP network that never used PRACK." > > I get it that you think PRACK is hard to implement. > But hard compared to *what*? I suspect that this will introduce > complexity elsewhere. [TS] With respect to this complexity I just see the 481 handling for the INFO. Compared to all the new states that I need when I implement PRACK (which can include a new offer as you know), I just have to keep the previously sent provisional response together with the INFO request. The latter I have to keep anyhow for potential retransmissions. If I get a 481, I resent the 18x and the INFO request. BTW: Just form emphasis. This is only needed if there is a UDP hop somewhere, in case of TCP/TLS the 18x would never be lost. > > >> If the response for a request within a dialog is a 481 > >> (Call/Transaction Does Not Exist) or a 408 (Request Timeout), > the > >> UAC > >> SHOULD terminate the dialog. > > [TS] We are in the dialog establishing phase here and when the 180 > was lost we don't even have an early dialog. > > So this rule does not apply. The 481 to the INFO would rather be the > indicator for this situation. As stated above we can prescribe that the > 481 (and only the 481) is to be sent for the INFO and what happens > next, i.e. retransmit the 180. > > This is part of the house of cards that I was talking about. > You seem to be saying that a special rule should be be adopted, > allowing > INFO to be sent from INVITE-UAS before it is known that the dialog has > been established. And then a special rule for processing 481 responses > to INFO in this context. [TS] Let me reject the comparison with a "house of cards". We are currently specifying a new feature. There are no deployed implementations yet. Thus we can exactly specify what should happen at the UAC when it receives an out-of-dialog INFO because the dialog establishing unreliable 18x was lost, i.e. to send 481. On the UAS side we can also specify what to do when the INFO gets a 481. I.e. resend the 18x and the INFO request. I consider this closer to a solid foundation than to a house of cards. Regards Thomas > > >> Also, keep in mind that the 180 carries an entire SDP answer. If > INFOs > >> are competing with 180s then they may potentially need to carry that > >> too > >> (or at least the ICE parts) and it would be good if we don't have to > >> open that can of worms. > > [TS] For the trickle-ICE application of the info-package I would just > recommend sending (all) the ICE candidates. > > This eliminates the competition, you just take what you got last. > > Certainly it will be simpler if all candidates are sent each time. > But I don't think that means you can just take what you got last. You > still need to check if what you got is *older* than what you already > have, and if so ignore it. > > Thanks, > Paul > _______________________________________________ > mmusic mailing list > mmusic@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Stach, Thomas
- [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Dan Wing
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Stach, Thomas
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Stach, Thomas
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Stach, Thomas
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Stach, Thomas
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Alan Johnston
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Parthasarathi R
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Vijaya Mandava (vimandav)
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Parthasarathi R
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Parthasarathi R
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Vijaya Mandava (vimandav)
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Parthasarathi R
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Stach, Thomas
- [MMUSIC] UPDATE vs INFO for SIP Trickle ICE [was … Parthasarathi R