Re: [MMUSIC] RE : I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-miscellaneous-caps-04.txt
<mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> Thu, 14 March 2013 15:19 UTC
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From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
To: Flemming Andreasen <fandreas@cisco.com>, Jonathan Lennox <jonathan@vidyo.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 16:19:53 +0100
Thread-Topic: [MMUSIC] RE : I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-miscellaneous-caps-04.txt
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Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] RE : I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-miscellaneous-caps-04.txt
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Dear Flemming, Apologies for not sending my comment earlier. I should read the draft before but I didn't read it since a while. It is unfair to ignore the messages exchanged in this thread which say the text is confusing and it should be worked better. The wording proposed by Jonathan is much better. Cheers, Med ________________________________ De : Flemming Andreasen [mailto:fandreas@cisco.com] Envoyé : jeudi 14 mars 2013 15:35 À : Jonathan Lennox; BOUCADAIR Mohamed OLNC/OLN Cc : Andrew Allen; mmusic@ietf.org Objet : Re: [MMUSIC] RE : I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-miscellaneous-caps-04.txt A couple of points here related to the overall thread: 1) WGLC for this draft completed about 6 months ago with no comments on the draft (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/mmusic/current/msg09594.html) The -01 version that was WGLC'ed stated the following: <quote> The 'ccap' capability attribute is intended to be used only when there is no other mechanism available for negotiating alternative connection address information, such as when the <nettype> is different among the alternative addresses. The 'ccap' attribute MUST NOT be used in situations where an existing mechanism (such as Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) [RFC5245]) can be used to select between different connection addresses. </quote and there is what the current -04 states: <quote> The 'ccap' capability attribute is intended to be used only when there is no other mechanism available for negotiating alternative connection address information, such as when the <nettype> is different among the alternative addresses (e.g. "IN" and "PSTN"). The 'ccap' attribute MUST NOT be used in situations where an existing mechanism (such as Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) [RFC5245]) can be used to select between different connection addresses (e.g. "IP4" and "IP6" or different IP addresses within the same IP address family). </quote> The only difference is the addition of clarifying examples and hence there is no change in operation here. 2) On January 25, Simo sent an e-mail to the list pointing out the port issue and suggesting text to be added (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/mmusic/current/msg10160.html) To recap, the draft specifically does not define port negotiation (but simply reuses the current port in accordance with general capability negotiation operation). Since this doesn't work when changing between IN and PSTN, exception text to use port 9 for PSTN was added (again in accordance with previous discussion). One comment was received, which was in favor of the proposal. The comments brought up now are not identifying any new or severe problems, but essentially amount to word-smithing requests. As a Working Group chair, I am unsympathetic to such requests on a document that is this far along and furthermore has external dependencies. We go through a WGLC process for a reason, and people need to review and make their comments at that time. Comments on new text or changes made since the WGLC completed are of course reasonable. With that in mind, if anybody still has comments on the -04 version, please let us know. Thanks -- Flemming (MMUSIC co-chair) On 3/14/13 9:04 AM, Jonathan Lennox wrote: I suggest being more concrete about ccap's restrictions, that it can't be used to negotiate alternative IP addresses. We can then discuss only ICE, without precluding altc for the proprietary systems which want to use it. Thus, I suggest something like this (wordsmithing requested): The 'ccap' attribute MUST NOT be used to offer multiple addresses with the <nettype> "IN" (i.e., multiple Internet protocol addresses) in the same media stream. Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) [RFC5245] can be used to allow a choice among multiple Internet addresses. The use of ICE with capability negotiation is described in section 3.7 of [RFC5939]. This text might also be useful (though it definitely needs editorial improvement): In principle, the attributes associated with ICE ought to be included only in configurations where each media stream has a connection address which matches one of the ICE candidates (i.e, for currently-defined candidate types, a configuration whose connection address has the <nettype> "IN"); otherwise, under the rules of ICE, an ICE mismatch will result. However, this ICE mismatch will in fact induce the desired behavior, causing the answerer to abort ICE processing and use the connection address; so this ICE mismatch is harmless, other than the inclusion of an "ice-mismatch" attribute in the SDP answer. On Mar 13, 2013, at 3:03 PM, Andrew Allen wrote: The text in the draft was worked out with Jonathan Lennox who raised the initial concen about conflict with ICE. If Jonathan is ok with the revised proposal from Thomas then I am OK with it. Andrew ----- Original Message ----- From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com<mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 01:38 PM Central Standard Time To: Andrew Allen; thomas.stach@siemens-enterprise.com<mailto:thomas.stach@siemens-enterprise.com> <thomas.stach@siemens-enterprise.com><mailto:thomas.stach@siemens-enterprise.com>; Simo.Veikkolainen@nokia.com<mailto:Simo.Veikkolainen@nokia.com> <Simo.Veikkolainen@nokia.com><mailto:Simo.Veikkolainen@nokia.com>; mmusic@ietf.org<mailto:mmusic@ietf.org> <mmusic@ietf.org><mailto:mmusic@ietf.org> Subject: RE : [MMUSIC] RE : I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-miscellaneous-caps-04.txt Hi Andrew, This was also my understanding but it seems the current text opens the door to signal an IPv4 and IPv6 address. If it is not allowed, then the text should be clear. Cheers, Med ________________________________________ De : Andrew Allen [aallen@blackberry.com<mailto:aallen@blackberry.com>] Date d'envoi : mercredi 13 mars 2013 19:37 À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed OLNC/OLN; thomas.stach@siemens-enterprise.com<mailto:thomas.stach@siemens-enterprise.com>; Simo.Veikkolainen@nokia.com<mailto:Simo.Veikkolainen@nokia.com>; mmusic@ietf.org<mailto:mmusic@ietf.org> Objet : Re: [MMUSIC] RE : I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-miscellaneous-caps-04.txt The main use of the CCAP parameter is to indicate the capability to use CS SDP and E.164 numbers as a connection address and is not intended for IPv4 vs IPv6 for which ICE is the IETF defined mechanism. ----- Original Message ----- From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com<mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 01:32 PM Central Standard Time To: Stach, Thomas <thomas.stach@siemens-enterprise.com><mailto:thomas.stach@siemens-enterprise.com>; Simo.Veikkolainen@nokia.com<mailto:Simo.Veikkolainen@nokia.com> <Simo.Veikkolainen@nokia.com><mailto:Simo.Veikkolainen@nokia.com>; mmusic@ietf.org<mailto:mmusic@ietf.org> <mmusic@ietf.org><mailto:mmusic@ietf.org> Subject: [MMUSIC] RE : I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-miscellaneous-caps-04.txt Re-, The wording you propose is better as it explicits this behavior is about ICE and not something else. So, I'm fine with that wording if this is the intent of the authors. BTW, the altc draft already mentions that if altc and ccap are both supported, then both are offered. In fact, I stopped to track this draft since the Anaheim meeting when it seems the consensus of the wg was: ICE is to solution to signal an IPv4 and IPv6 address. The misc draft should specify ccap when distinct nettypes are in use. It seems that consensus is not anymore valid. The current text of ccap is under-specified if it is to be used to convey an IPv4 and IPv6 address. Cheers, Med ________________________________________ De : Stach, Thomas [thomas.stach@siemens-enterprise.com<mailto:thomas.stach@siemens-enterprise.com>] Date d'envoi : mercredi 13 mars 2013 19:17 À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed OLNC/OLN; Simo.Veikkolainen@nokia.com<mailto:Simo.Veikkolainen@nokia.com>; mmusic@ietf.org<mailto:mmusic@ietf.org> Objet : AW: [MMUSIC] I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-miscellaneous-caps-04.txt Mohammed, I think it is not acceptable to mention altc in the example. If I recollect correctly, the intention of the text is to specify that ICE MUST be preferred over 'ccap' for IPv4/v6 address negotiation. If we add 'altc' as another example it basically means that the proprietary 'altc' is preferred over 'ccap'. I don't think that a standards track RFC should give the message that proprietary is preferred. Based on this issue I think the current text in the draft does not work. I would explicitly mention the relation of ICE and 'ccap'. The relation to other mechanism such as 'altc' needs to be treated in hte specification of that mechanism. Thus I propose to rephrase to: If an offerer has implemented Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) [RFC5245] and the 'ccap' attribute it MUST use ICE to select between different connection addresses (e.g. "IP4" and "IP6" or different IP addresses within the same IP address family). Regards Thomas -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com<mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com] Gesendet: Mittwoch, 13. März 2013 13:40 An: Stach, Thomas; Simo.Veikkolainen@nokia.com<mailto:Simo.Veikkolainen@nokia.com>; mmusic@ietf.org<mailto:mmusic@ietf.org> Betreff: RE : [MMUSIC] I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-miscellaneous-caps-04.txt Dear Thomas, I'm not proposing to change the existing behavior; I'm just asking whether it is acceptable to add an additional example to the one already cited in the text. Wouldn't that be acceptable? You can propose to add another example if you have any in mind. Cheers, Med ________________________________________ De : Stach, Thomas [thomas.stach@siemens-enterprise.com<mailto:thomas.stach@siemens-enterprise.com>] Date d'envoi : mercredi 13 mars 2013 17:57 À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed OLNC/OLN; Simo.Veikkolainen@nokia.com<mailto:Simo.Veikkolainen@nokia.com>; mmusic@ietf.org<mailto:mmusic@ietf.org> Objet : AW: [MMUSIC] I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-miscellaneous-caps-04.txt Mohammed, I think you have draft-boucadair-mmusic-altc in mind. This is an individual submission intended to document some proporietary mechanism. I don't think we should make restrictions in a standards track document in support of proprietary mechanisms. Otherwise I could also think of additional proprietary stuff that could be mentioned as well. Regards Thomas -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: mmusic-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:mmusic-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:mmusic-bounces@ietf.org] Im Auftrag von mohamed.boucadair@orange.com<mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 13. März 2013 11:20 An: Simo.Veikkolainen@nokia.com<mailto:Simo.Veikkolainen@nokia.com>; mmusic@ietf.org<mailto:mmusic@ietf.org> Betreff: Re: [MMUSIC] I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-miscellaneous-caps-04.txt Hi Simo, The document says: The 'ccap' attribute MUST NOT be used in situations where an existing mechanism (such as Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) [RFC5245]) can be used to select between different connection addresses (e.g. "IP4" and "IP6" or different IP addresses within the same IP address family). Would it be possible to change it to the following: NEW: The 'ccap' attribute MUST NOT be used in situations where a mechanism (such as Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) [RFC5245] or [ALTC]) is used to select between different connection addresses (e.g. "IP4" and "IP6" or different IP addresses within the same IP address family). Thanks. Cheers, Med -----Message d'origine----- De : mmusic-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:mmusic-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:mmusic-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Simo.Veikkolainen@nokia.com<mailto:Simo.Veikkolainen@nokia.com> Envoyé : mercredi 13 mars 2013 16:09 À : mmusic@ietf.org<mailto:mmusic@ietf.org> Objet : Re: [MMUSIC] I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-miscellaneous-caps-04.txt Hello, We just submitted a new version of the miscellaneous-caps draft, with text that states that if the connection data capability attribute (a=ccap) is used the port number in the resulting SDP MUST be the same as in the original "m=" line, except for PSTN type bearers (when the port number used is 9). Regards, Simo -----Original Message----- From: mmusic-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:mmusic-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:mmusic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext internet-drafts@ietf.org<mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org> Sent: 13. maaliskuuta 2013 15:39 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org<mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org> Cc: mmusic@ietf.org<mailto:mmusic@ietf.org> Subject: [MMUSIC] I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-miscellaneous-caps-04.txt A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group of the IETF. Title : Miscellaneous Capabilities Negotiation in the Session Description Protocol (SDP) Author(s) : Miguel A. Garcia-Martin Simo Veikkolainen Robert R. Gilman Filename : draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-miscellaneous-caps-04.txt Pages : 21 Date : 2013-03-13 Abstract: SDP has been extended with a capability negotiation mechanism framework that allows the endpoints to negotiate transport protocols and attributes. This framework has been extended with a media capabilities negotiation mechanism that allows endpoints to negotiate additional media-related capabilities. This negotiation is embedded into the widely-used SDP offer/answer procedures. This memo extends the SDP capability negotiation framework to allow endpoints to negotiate three additional SDP capabilities. In particular, this memo provides a mechanism to negotiate bandwidth ('b=' line), connection data ('c=' line), and titles ('i=' line for each session or media). The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-miscella neous-caps There's also a htmlized version available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-miscellaneous-caps-04 A diff from the previous version is available at: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-miscella neous-caps-04 Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ mmusic mailing list mmusic@ietf.org<mailto:mmusic@ietf.org> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic _______________________________________________ mmusic mailing list mmusic@ietf.org<mailto:mmusic@ietf.org> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic _______________________________________________ mmusic mailing list mmusic@ietf.org<mailto:mmusic@ietf.org> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic _______________________________________________ mmusic mailing list mmusic@ietf.org<mailto:mmusic@ietf.org> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic --------------------------------------------------------------------- This transmission (including any attachments) may contain confidential information, privileged material (including material protected by the solicitor-client or other applicable privileges), or constitute non-public information. Any use of this information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately reply to the sender and delete this information from your system. Use, dissemination, distribution, or reproduction of this transmission by unintended recipients is not authorized and may be unlawful. --------------------------------------------------------------------- This transmission (including any attachments) may contain confidential information, privileged material (including material protected by the solicitor-client or other applicable privileges), or constitute non-public information. Any use of this information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately reply to the sender and delete this information from your system. Use, dissemination, distribution, or reproduction of this transmission by unintended recipients is not authorized and may be unlawful. -- Jonathan Lennox jonathan@vidyo.com<mailto:jonathan@vidyo.com> _______________________________________________ mmusic mailing list mmusic@ietf.org<mailto:mmusic@ietf.org> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic .
- [MMUSIC] I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-miscel… internet-drafts
- Re: [MMUSIC] I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mi… Simo.Veikkolainen
- Re: [MMUSIC] I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mi… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [MMUSIC] I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mi… Stach, Thomas
- [MMUSIC] RE : I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-m… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [MMUSIC] I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mi… Stach, Thomas
- Re: [MMUSIC] I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mi… Atle Monrad
- [MMUSIC] RE : I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-m… mohamed.boucadair
- [MMUSIC] RE : I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-m… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [MMUSIC] I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mi… DOLLY, MARTIN C
- Re: [MMUSIC] RE : I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-s… Andrew Allen
- [MMUSIC] RE : RE : I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [MMUSIC] I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mi… Atle Monrad
- Re: [MMUSIC] RE : RE : I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmu… Andrew Allen
- [MMUSIC] RE : RE : RE : I-D Action: draft-ietf-mm… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [MMUSIC] RE : RE : I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmu… Simo.Veikkolainen
- Re: [MMUSIC] RE : RE : I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmu… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [MMUSIC] RE : RE : I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmu… Simo.Veikkolainen
- Re: [MMUSIC] RE : I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-s… Jonathan Lennox
- Re: [MMUSIC] RE : RE : I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmu… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [MMUSIC] RE : I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-s… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] RE : I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-s… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [MMUSIC] RE : I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-s… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] RE : I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-s… Jonathan Lennox
- Re: [MMUSIC] RE : I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-s… mohamed.boucadair
- [MMUSIC] RE : RE : I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [MMUSIC] RE : I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-s… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] RE : I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-s… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] RE : I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-s… Jonathan Lennox
- Re: [MMUSIC] RE : I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-s… Andrew Allen
- Re: [MMUSIC] RE : I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-s… Stach, Thomas
- Re: [MMUSIC] RE : I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-s… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] RE : I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-s… Andrew Allen
- Re: [MMUSIC] RE : I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-s… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mi… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [MMUSIC] I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mi… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [MMUSIC] RE : I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-s… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [MMUSIC] RE : I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-s… Simo.Veikkolainen
- Re: [MMUSIC] I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mi… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [MMUSIC] I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mi… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] RE : I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-s… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] RE : I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-s… Andrew Allen
- Re: [MMUSIC] RE : I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-s… Flemming Andreasen