Re: [MMUSIC] FW: Issue #27: Allow RTP attributes in non-media m= sections

[Paul Kyzivat <[e-mail]>]

I give up!!! If everybody else is happy with this then I will simply 
hold my nose and my tongue.

The fundamental problem here is that SDP syntax is vastly inadequate for 
how it has been pushed. This was already true when O/A was first 
introduced, and it has gotten progressively more apparent as more things 
have been added.

Unfortunately there seems to be zero chance that another crack at SDPng 
will ever be taken.

	Grumble,
	Paul

On 2/18/17 5:28 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 1:38 PM, Paul Kyzivat <[e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
>
>     On 2/18/17 1:45 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>
>
>
>         On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 8:09 AM, Paul Kyzivat
>         <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
>         <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>>
>         wrote:
>
>             On 2/18/17 4:35 AM, Christer Holmberg wrote:
>
>                 Hi,
>
>                 I invite anyone who has a suggestion on text that needs
>         to be
>                 modified/added/removed to provide a pull request (or
>         send text
>                 to the list) to do so; in draft-bundle,
>         draft-mux-attributes,
>                 and/or any other specification...
>
>
>             IMO it doesn't make sense to put attributes on one bundled
>         m-line
>             that only apply to some other bundled m-line - current or
>         future.
>
>
>         Why? The whole principle is that they are supposed to span all
>         the m= lines.
>
>
>     They are supposed to span all the m-lines in the bundle that it is
>     meaningful for them to be used with.
>
>
> Yes, and so it doesn't matter which one they are attached to.
>
>
>     The closest thing we currently have to this situation is
>     session-level attributes. Some of those are defined as valid at both
>     session and media level, and that the value at session level is a
>     default for media level. These in some sense need to be evaluated in
>     the context of every m-line, even the ones where they aren't defined.
>
>     But we have no standard rule for these. Every attribute needs to say
>     if it is defined at session level and if that should be treated as a
>     default for a value at media level. And in the process it is
>     specifying (at least implicitly) which m-lines it applies to.
>
>     In principle this could also be done for all the attributes that are
>     to be identical in bundles. But that means making all the changes to
>     do that, and maintain it in the future.
>
>
> Huh? We already have a document that analyzes every single attribute and
> tells you how it
> is to be handled
> (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes-16) and
> tells you how to hoist stuff from one m= line to all of them. And we're
> already handling
> it that way if the m= line associated with the bundle tag is a media
> section. The only
> difference is how it's handled if it's a data section.
>
> -Ekr
>
>             As an alternative, how about picking the first tag in the bundle
>             attribute that identifies an m-line of an appropriate type
>         to carry
>             the attribute?
>
>         Seems much more complicated to implement and specify.
>
>         To conserve e-mails, responding to Christer as well here: I
>         don't think
>         we need to update any of the relevant RFCs (other than potentially
>         putting them in some
>         useless Updates: line at the top of the doc). The idea here is that
>         BUNDLE overrides them for cases where it applies.
>
>
>     Again, maybe it is possible to craft some words that clearly and
>     precisely state how this is to work, in a general way without taking
>     it one attribute at a time. But I want to see them.
>
>     Then we can discuss whether that is simpler than what I suggested above.
>
>             Thanks,
>             Paul
>
>         -Ekr
>
>
>                     Thanks,
>                     Paul
>
>
>                 Regards,
>
>                 Christer
>
>                 -----Original Message-----
>                 From: Paul Kyzivat [mailto:[e-mail]
>         <mailto:[e-mail]>
>                 <mailto:[e-mail]
>         <mailto:[e-mail]>>]
>                 Sent: 17 February 2017 18:51
>                 To: Taylor Brandstetter <[e-mail]
>         <mailto:[e-mail]>
>                 <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>>
>                 Cc: Christer Holmberg <[e-mail]
>         <mailto:[e-mail]>
>                 <mailto:[e-mail]
>         <mailto:[e-mail]>>>; IETF MMUSIC WG
>                 <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
>         <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>>
>                 Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] FW: Issue #27: Allow RTP attributes in
>                 non-media m= sections
>
>                 On 2/16/17 9:27 PM, Taylor Brandstetter wrote:
>
>                         So, to make this work I think it will be
>         necessary to
>                     ammend the
>                         definitions of the particular attributes to
>         specify this
>                     usage. And
>                         then future new attributes that pertain to RTP would
>                     also need to
>                         address this.
>
>
>                     sdp-mux-attributes already amends the definitions of
>         these
>                     attributes,
>                     such that a TRANSPORT attribute in m= section "A" can be
>                     used for
>                     media described by m= section "B". So, I don't see
>         why it
>                     couldn't go
>                     a step further, and explicitly allow TRANSPORT and
>         IDENTICAL
>                     category
>                     attributes to appear in m= sections with proto
>         values not
>                     normally
>                     used with those attributes.
>
>
>                 I will reserve judgement until I see specific text.
>
>                         Thanks,
>                         Paul
>
>                     On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Paul Kyzivat
>                     <[e-mail]
>         <mailto:[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail]
>         <mailto:[e-mail]>>
>                     <mailto:[e-mail]
>         <mailto:[e-mail]>
>
>                     <mailto:[e-mail]
>         <mailto:[e-mail]>>>> wrote:
>
>                         On 2/16/17 12:10 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote:
>
>                             Hi Paul,
>
>                             I assume you have an opinion on this :)
>
>                             The suggestion is to allow RTP-specific
>         parameters
>                     (SDP rtcp-mux
>                             attributes etc) in non-RTP m= lines (e.g., data
>                     channel).
>
>
>                         This is a nasty issue.
>
>                         The problem with allowing this is: what do these
>                     parameters *mean*
>                         when so attached? And where do I look to find out?
>
>                         I'm not certain if they are currently permitted
>         or not.
>                     AFAIK there
>                         is no *general* mechanism for specifying with which
>                     proto values a
>                         particular attribute may be used. I haven't
>         studied the
>                     definitions
>                         of the "RTP-related" attributes to see if they
>         make a
>                     specific
>                         statement about this. My guess is that they
>         don't, but
>                     that they
>                         only define the meaning in the context of an RTP
>         session.
>
>                         If that is so, perhaps the rule that unknown
>         attributes
>                     are to be
>                         ignored should apply to those attributes when
>         used with
>                     a non-RTP
>                         media section. But if that rule were to apply,
>         then we
>                     would expect
>                         that with O/A the rules for how these attributes
>         in an
>                     offer affect
>                         what goes in the answer would not apply. I guess
>         that
>                     won't be
>                         sufficient here.
>
>                         So, to make this work I think it will be
>         necessary to
>                     ammend the
>                         definitions of the particular attributes to
>         specify this
>                     usage. And
>                         then future new attributes that pertain to RTP would
>                     also need to
>                         address this.
>
>                         IMO this is a can of worms. So my opinion is
>         that these
>                     should *not*
>                         be used with non-RTP m-lines, with or without
>         bundle.
>
>                         Note that data channel is a special case. While
>         we have
>                     agreed not
>                         to consider it for now, it is possible, in
>         principle, to
>                     run RTP
>                         over a data channel. If that were defined then these
>                     attributes
>                         would also be needed. But then they would not be
>         used as
>                     media-level
>                         attributes. Instead, they would be dcsa attributes.
>
>                                 Thanks,
>                                 Paul
>
>                             *From:*mmusic
>         [mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
>                     <mailto:[e-mail]
>         <mailto:[e-mail]>>
>                             <mailto:[e-mail]
>         <mailto:[e-mail]>
>                     <mailto:[e-mail]
>         <mailto:[e-mail]>>>] *On Behalf Of *Christer
>                             Holmberg
>                             *Sent:* 16 February 2017 19:07
>                             *To:* Eric Rescorla <[e-mail]
>         <mailto:[e-mail]>
>                     <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>
>         <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
>                     <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>>>; mmusic
>                             WG <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
>         <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>
>                     <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
>         <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>>>
>
>                             *Subject:* Re: [MMUSIC] Issue #27: Allow RTP
>                     attributes in
>                             non-media m=
>                             sections
>
>
>
>                             Hi,
>
>                             * *
>
>                             *>*See:
>
>
>                     https://github.com/cdh4u/draft-sdp-bundle/issues/27
>         <https://github.com/cdh4u/draft-sdp-bundle/issues/27>
>                     <https://github.com/cdh4u/draft-sdp-bundle/issues/27
>         <https://github.com/cdh4u/draft-sdp-bundle/issues/27>>
>
>                     <https://github.com/cdh4u/draft-sdp-bundle/issues/27
>         <https://github.com/cdh4u/draft-sdp-bundle/issues/27>
>                     <https://github.com/cdh4u/draft-sdp-bundle/issues/27
>         <https://github.com/cdh4u/draft-sdp-bundle/issues/27>>>
>
>
>
>         https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/528
>         <https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/528>
>                     <https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/528
>         <https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/528>>
>
>         <https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/528
>         <https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/528>
>                     <https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/528
>         <https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/528>>>
>
>
>
>
>                                 The basic issue is that it's possible to
>         have a
>                     situation
>                                 where you
>
>                             have both
>
>                                 media and data m= sections but the
>         BUNDLE tag is
>                     associated
>                                 with the data
>
>
>                                 m= section and now you need to put the
>         TRANSPORT and
>                     IDENTICAL
>
>
>                                 attributes somewhere. The JSEP editors
>         discussed
>                     this and
>                                 came to the
>
>
>                                 conclusion that it should go with the
>         BUNDLE tag
>                     (i.e., in
>                                 the data m=
>
>                             section)
>
>                                 and that BUNDLE should forbid this, but it
>                     requires a change
>                                 to BUNDLE.
>
>
>
>
>                             Did you mean to say that BUNDLE should NOT
>         forbid this?
>
>
>
>                             Based on your GitHub discussion, my
>         understanding is
>                     that you
>                             want to
>                             allow to include RTP-specific parameters
>                     (‘rtcp-mux’, ‘rtcp’,
>                             ‘rtcp-mux-only’ attributes etc) in the data
>         m= section.
>
>
>
>                             To repeat what I said on GitHub:
>
>
>
>                             This has been discussed in the past, and the
>         outcome
>                     has been to now
>                             allow RTP-specific parameters in non-RTP m=
>         sections.
>
>
>
>                             A solution would be to simply change the
>         bundle tag
>                     when the RTP m=
>                             sections are added.
>
>
>
>                             …OR, we change the mux category for the
>         RTP-specific
>                     parameters.
>                             But,
>                             that of course means they have to be added
>         to every
>                     RTP m= section.
>
>
>
>                             Regards,
>
>
>
>                             Christer
>
>
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