Re: [MMUSIC] Notes from Orlando human language draft discussion
Randall Gellens <randy@qti.qualcomm.com> Sun, 17 March 2013 19:43 UTC
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Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 12:36:22 -0700
To: Hadriel Kaplan <HKaplan@acmepacket.com>
From: Randall Gellens <randy@qti.qualcomm.com>
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Cc: Randall Gellens <randy@qti.qualcomm.com>, "ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no" <ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no>, "mmusic@ietf.org" <mmusic@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Notes from Orlando human language draft discussion
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At 1:03 AM +0000 3/17/13, Hadriel Kaplan wrote: > On Mar 16, 2013, at 5:54 PM, Randall Gellens <randy@qti.qualcomm.com> wrote: > >>> What's the use-case when the two directions are not identical? >>> I.e., when does it make sense to receive Latin but send Swahili >>> for the same media? >>> I ask because this separation complicates things quite a bit in >>> code/testing/error-handling, obviously. >> >> I'll let Harald speak to this as he was pretty insistent that it >> was a misuse of SDP (if I understood him) to use the same >> attribute for sending and receiving. > > That may be true for attributes specific to a format/payload > type... maybe. But for just attributes applying to a media or > session section, I don't think so. You can look up the registered > SDP attributes in IANA and find a bunch that really apply to both > directions, at least in practice. I don't want to put words in Harald's mouth, but my recollection is that he specifically mentioned the "in practice" as being an abuse. > For example: the 'a=inactive' attribute. It's not inactive for a > specific direction, it's inactive for both directions. That makes sense, and personally I'm in favor of keeping things as simple as possible. But I also don't want to be accused of fomenting further misuse of SDP :-) >> The result of the discussion is to add a token for the caller to >> indicate a preference for the language being mandatory or >> advisory, but the callee is not required to honor this preference. > > If the callee is not required to honor a mandatory preference, then > it's not really mandatory is it? > Is there a third token for "I really mean it"? ;) The preference is not mandatory (if it was, it wouldn't be a preference, it would be a demand). The preference indicates if the caller wants the callee to treat language as mandatory versus advisory. >> I can imagine scenarios where failing the call might be preferred, >> such as a caller who will call an alternate party if the required >> language isn't supported. > > I can imagine scenarios where the caller will call an alternate > party as well, but that's what we let them do by letting them > hang-up/end the session. If this is really what is wanted, it is quicker if the call fails during setup rather than going through full setup, possible queues (remember, a major use case is calling call centers), attempting to speak to a representative, and then hanging up in frustration. > And I'm not saying that to be flippant. I'm really worried calls > will fail when the user didn't want them to, and that would be bad. > Bad because I don't want them having to read a manual to make a > call work, or having them contact their provider's tech support to > figure out why their call failed. I am also concerned about introducing features where it is not obvious what the client should do. I can see obvious ways for a client to make a reasonable default language choice, and ways to allow the user to configure it. It's harder to see how a client knows if the advisory token should be set to fail or proceed. -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal; facts are suspect; I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- The fetters imposed on liberty at home have ever been forged out of the weapons provided for defence against real, pretended, or imaginary dangers from abroad. --James Madison, 4th US president (1751-1836)
- [MMUSIC] Notes from Orlando human language draft … Randall Gellens
- Re: [MMUSIC] Notes from Orlando human language dr… Gunnar Hellstrom
- Re: [MMUSIC] Notes from Orlando human language dr… Randall Gellens
- Re: [MMUSIC] Notes from Orlando human language dr… Gunnar Hellstrom
- Re: [MMUSIC] Notes from Orlando human language dr… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [MMUSIC] Notes from Orlando human language dr… Gunnar Hellstrom
- Re: [MMUSIC] Notes from Orlando human language dr… Randall Gellens
- Re: [MMUSIC] Notes from Orlando human language dr… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [MMUSIC] Notes from Orlando human language dr… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [MMUSIC] Notes from Orlando human language dr… Gunnar Hellstrom
- Re: [MMUSIC] Notes from Orlando human language dr… Randall Gellens
- Re: [MMUSIC] Notes from Orlando human language dr… Christian Groves
- Re: [MMUSIC] Notes from Orlando human language dr… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Notes from Orlando human language dr… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Notes from Orlando human language dr… Gunnar Hellstrom
- Re: [MMUSIC] Notes from Orlando human language dr… Gunnar Hellstrom
- Re: [MMUSIC] Notes from Orlando human language dr… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [MMUSIC] Notes from Orlando human language dr… Randall Gellens
- Re: [MMUSIC] Notes from Orlando human language dr… Christian Groves
- Re: [MMUSIC] Notes from Orlando human language dr… Randall Gellens
- Re: [MMUSIC] Notes from Orlando human language dr… Gunnar Hellstrom
- Re: [MMUSIC] Notes from Orlando human language dr… Christian Groves
- Re: [MMUSIC] Notes from Orlando human language dr… Christian Groves
- Re: [MMUSIC] Notes from Orlando human language dr… Gunnar Hellstrom
- Re: [MMUSIC] Notes from Orlando human language dr… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Notes from Orlando human language dr… Gunnar Hellstrom
- Re: [MMUSIC] Notes from Orlando human language dr… Randall Gellens
- Re: [MMUSIC] Notes from Orlando human language dr… Gunnar Hellstrom
- Re: [MMUSIC] Notes from Orlando human language dr… Christian Groves
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-gellens-mmusic-negotiating-hum… Gunnar Hellstrom
- Re: [MMUSIC] Notes from Orlando human language dr… Randall Gellens
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-gellens-mmusic-negotiating-hum… Randall Gellens
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-gellens-mmusic-negotiating-hum… Gunnar Hellstrom
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-gellens-mmusic-negotiating-hum… Gunnar Hellstrom
- Re: [MMUSIC] Notes from Orlando human language dr… Christian Groves
- Re: [MMUSIC] Notes from Orlando human language dr… Gunnar Hellstrom