Re: [MMUSIC] New Version Notification for draft-abhishek-mmusic-superimposition-grouping-00.txt(Internet mail) - order and transparency
Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> Tue, 19 January 2021 18:39 UTC
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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: "rabhishek(RohitAbhishek)" <rabhishek@tencent.com>, Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu>, "mmusic@ietf.org" <mmusic@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] New Version Notification for draft-abhishek-mmusic-superimposition-grouping-00.txt(Internet mail) - order and transparency
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Hi, ... >> Finally, ISTM that you don't need to treat the background document as a >> special case. The grouping mechanism can be used to identify all the >> media streams participating in this superposition mechanism, including >> the one you are considering to be the background. >> >> IIUC the scheme you describe defines the result of superposition based >> on the transparency values of the individual streams, so that no other >> ordering mechanism is needed. (Do I have that right?) If so, isn't the >> background just the media stream with tranparency = 100? > > Rohit: The ordering mechanism will be needed. Suppose we have a background X with transparency=100, and a superimposed media A with transparency=50. > A over X would mean that X would visible partially through A, however X over A would mean that A wouldn't show through X. That is my understanding too, after I started to look a little bit more into this: for each stream within the group, we need the order value AND the transparency value. Regards, Christer > Best Regards, > Rohit > > On 1/14/21, 9:25 AM, "mmusic on behalf of Paul Kyzivat" <mailto:mmusic-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu> wrote: > > On 1/14/21 4:54 AM, Christer Holmberg wrote: > > Hi, > > > >> One more thing, regarding transparency: > >> > >> I'm fuzzy on how this is intended to work. I would think that each superposition layer would have some parts that are fully transparent. > >> (Transparent pixels.) And then the transparency attribute would apply to the parts that aren't fully transparent. But that is only a guess. I think you need to say more about how the superposition is supposed to work. > > > > Isn't "transparent background" information carried within the video stream (codec or container) itself? > > That is my impression, but I don't really know. But the transparency > attribute must do *something*. > > The draft needs to explain better. > > Thanks, > Paul > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > > > > > On 12/14/20 11:21 AM, Paul Kyzivat wrote: > >> Rohit, > >> > >> Here are a few more points I forgot: > >> > >> 1) syntax > >> > >> In section 3 you repeat the syntax for the 'mid' attribute from RFC5888. > >> I guess you don't intend it to be normative, but it gave me that > >> impression. > >> > >> I don't think you need to repeat the syntax here. It should be > >> sufficient to mention that you follow RFC5888 in use of the 'mid' > >> attribute to identify the media sections that are to be included in > >> the superposition. > >> > >> Similarly in section 5, I suggest that you only provide ABNF for the > >> additions to syntax required for your extension. Specifically: > >> > >> semantics =/ "superposition" <semantics as defined in RFC5888> > >> > >> (Everything else is inherited from RFC5888.) > >> > >> 2) applicability > >> > >> Regarding the following in section 3: > >> > >> ... An application that receives a session > >> description that contains "m" lines grouped together using "S" > >> semantics MUST superimpose the corresponding media streams on top > >> of > >> the background media stream. > >> > >> You need to recognize that because this feature is an extension its > >> requirements can only apply to those that implement the extension. Its > >> best to call that out specifically. > >> > >> Also, please give some thought to what will happen a device supporting > >> this negotiates a session with a device that doesn't. The > >> non-supporting device will treat these as independent media streams. > >> If that is a problem for you then we need to discuss strategies for > >> avoiding that situation. > >> > >> 3) differing size/resolution > >> > >> How the overlaying will work seems well defined if the image width and > >> height in pixels and pixel shape is the same for all the media streams > >> in the superposition group. But what if they aren't? > >> > >> I think the document should specify what should happen in such cases. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Paul > >> > >> On 12/13/20 3:54 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote: > >>> On 12/12/20 2:06 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote: > >>>> Hi, > >>>> > >>>> A few comments (some of which I gave already previously): > >>> > >>> Christer covered most of what I wanted to say. I'll just add a few > >>> tweaks below. > >>> > >>>> Q1: > >>>> > >>>> In Section 1, where you talk about the limitations of the mechanism, > >>>> you should mention that CLUE must be used something more "fancy" is > >>>> needed. > >>>> > >>>> --- > >>>> > >>>> Q2: > >>>> > >>>> In Section 3, you require a specific order of the m- lines in the > >>>> SDP. I think SDP explicitly says that the order of m- lines is not > >>>> relevant. Also, I know that parsers may change the orders of the m- > >>>> lines. > >>>> > >>>> (I also think that any counting should start from 1, not 0) > >>>> > >>>> My suggestion would be to have an explicit "order" attribute instead. > >>> > >>> I think it would be acceptable to use the order of the tokens in the > >>> a:group line to define the ordering of the "layers". The "lowest" > >>> layer would then be the background on which the others are overlain. > >>> (Whether the lowest layer is the first or last in the list is TBD.) > >>> > >>>> --- > >>>> > >>>> Q3: > >>>> > >>>> The example in Section 6 talks about "a background video". But, this > >>>> background video is not described in the SDP. > >>>> > >>>> Related to that, if the SDP describes multiple "background videos", > >>>> you need to describe how you map superimposed videos to a specific > >>>> background video. > >>>> > >>>> Based on the text in Section 3 (see Q2), I am not sure whether the > >>>> 0th m- line is supposed to be the background video, but the text in > >>>> Section 6 says that both m- lines are for superimposed video streams. > >>> > >>> See my comment above. > >>> > >>> The background layer would presumably have a transparency of zero. > >>> > >>> (It would also be good to specify that if the transparency attribute > >>> is omitted it defaults to zero.) > >>> > >>>> --- > >>>> > >>>> Q4: > >>>> > >>>> What happens to the superimposed videos if I disable/remove/mute the > >>>> background video? > >>>> > >>>> --- > >>>> > >>>> Q5: > >>>> > >>>> This is editorial, but please call the group attribute something > >>>> else than just "S". "supim", "spim" or something :) > >>> > >>> Yes please. "S" is way to cryptic. > >>> > >>> Thanks, > >>> Paul > >>> > >>>> Regards, > >>>> > >>>> Christer > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: mmusic <mailto:mmusic-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Rohit Abhishek > >>>> Sent: lauantai 12. joulukuuta 2020 0.28 > >>>> To: mailto:mmusic@ietf.org > >>>> Subject: [MMUSIC] FW: New Version Notification for > >>>> draft-abhishek-mmusic-superimposition-grouping-00.txt > >>>> > >>>> Dear All, > >>>> > >>>> A new version of the draft “SDP Superimposition Grouping framework” > >>>> has been uploaded. > >>>> We have changed the name from “SDP Overlay Grouping framework for > >>>> immersive telepresence media streams” to “SDP Superimposition > >>>> Grouping framework” as the previous name wasn’t an accurate > >>>> description of the content. Therefore, we had to start from version 00. > >>>> > >>>> Thank you all for the comments/suggestions on the previous draft. > >>>> We have tried to address them in this version. Specifically, a > >>>> transparency attribute and an informative Section on relationship > >>>> with CLUE has been added. > >>>> > >>>> Comments/Questions/Feedbacks are welcome. > >>>> > >>>> Best Regards, > >>>> Rohit > >>>> > >>>> On 12/11/20, 12:41 PM, "mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" > >>>> <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> A new version of I-D, > >>>> draft-abhishek-mmusic-superimposition-grouping-00.txt > >>>> has been successfully submitted by Rohit Abhishek and posted to > >>>> the > >>>> IETF repository. > >>>> > >>>> Name: draft-abhishek-mmusic-superimposition-grouping > >>>> Revision: 00 > >>>> Title: SDP Superimposition Grouping framework > >>>> Document date: 2020-12-11 > >>>> Group: Individual Submission > >>>> Pages: 8 > >>>> URL: > >>>> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-abhishek-mmusic-superimpositio > >>>> n-grouping-00.txt > >>>> > >>>> Status: > >>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-abhishek-mmusic-superimpositi > >>>> on-grouping/ > >>>> > >>>> Htmlized: > >>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-abhishek-mmusic-superimp > >>>> osition-grouping > >>>> > >>>> Htmlized: > >>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-abhishek-mmusic-superimposition-gr > >>>> ouping-00 > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Abstract: > >>>> This document defines semantics that allow for signaling a > >>>> new SDP > >>>> group "S" for superimposed media in an SDP session. The "S" > >>>> attribute can be used by the application to relate all the > >>>> superimposed media streams enabling them to be added as an > >>>> overlay on > >>>> top of any media stream. The superimposition grouping > >>>> semantics is > >>>> required, if the media data is separate and transported via > >>>> different > >>>> sessions. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time > >>>> of submission > >>>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at > >>>> tools.ietf.org. > >>>> > >>>> The IETF Secretariat > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> mmusic mailing list > >>>> mailto:mmusic@ietf.org > >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> mmusic mailing list > >>>> mailto:mmusic@ietf.org > >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic > >>>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> mmusic mailing list > >>> mailto:mmusic@ietf.org > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> mmusic mailing list > >> mailto:mmusic@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic > > > > _______________________________________________ > > mmusic mailing list > > mailto:mmusic@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic > > _______________________________________________ > > mmusic mailing list > > mailto:mmusic@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic > > > > _______________________________________________ > mmusic mailing list > mailto:mmusic@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic > > _______________________________________________ > mmusic mailing list > mailto:mmusic@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic >
- Re: [MMUSIC] New Version Notification for draft-a… Christer Holmberg