Re: [MMUSIC] WG adoption of other WebRTC data channel usage drafts?; Re: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-mmusic-msrp-usage-data-channel-02.txt

Gunnar Hellström <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se> Fri, 16 October 2015 20:31 UTC

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References: <786615F3A85DF44AA2A76164A71FE1ACDF796695@FR711WXCHMBA01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <56202783.3010300@cisco.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37B45C83@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <786615F3A85DF44AA2A76164A71FE1ACDF79D867@FR711WXCHMBA01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37B45FDB@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <56213DD9.8080308@alum.mit.edu> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37B46EA0@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <5621596C.3070706@alum.mit.edu>
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gunnar_Hellstr=c3=b6m?= <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>
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Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 22:31:34 +0200
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Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] WG adoption of other WebRTC data channel usage drafts?; Re: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-mmusic-msrp-usage-data-channel-02.txt
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In my view:

The subprotocol specifications are equally needed as the traditional RTP 
payload specifications.

There is a need to register subprotocol identifiers with IANA, and that 
is usually done through an RFC.

SDP parameters, SCTP channel characteristics, error handling, and even 
mapping to RTP transport for use in traditional SIP, all these are 
natural parts of a data channel subprotocol spec. I cannot see any more 
natural place to do this than in IETF as a RFC.  Then we have it in a 
recognized international place that can be referenced from IETF and 
other organizations such as 3GPP, W3C etc.

This is valid for the T.140 in data channel and at least its mapping to 
RFC 4103. It is probably valid for most other subchannel specifications 
that will follow.

/Gunnar

Den 2015-10-16 kl. 22:09, skrev Paul Kyzivat:
> On 10/16/15 3:10 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote:
>> Hi Paul,
>>
>> I do agree that the data channel could be used for t.140, and I support
>> the work to be done.
>>
>> My point was the the work doesn't necessarily have to be done in IETF,
>> does it?
>
> I suppose not, if there is another place. But IIUC T.140 over RTP is 
> defined in the IETF, and the protocol work for WebRTC is done in the 
> ietf, so it seems logical to me that T.140 over data channel also be 
> done in ietf.
>
>> Or, is an RFC required for data channel usages?
>
> I don't know. Probably not.
>
>     Thanks,
>     Paul
>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Christer
>>
>> Sent from my Windows Phone
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> From: Paul Kyzivat <mailto:pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu>
>> Sent: ‎16/‎10/‎2015 21:11
>> To: mmusic@ietf.org <mailto:mmusic@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] WG adoption of other WebRTC data channel usage
>> drafts?; Re: New Version Notification for
>> draft-ietf-mmusic-msrp-usage-data-channel-02.txt
>>
>> On 10/16/15 5:50 AM, Christer Holmberg wrote:
>>> Sorry - my mistake. But, my comment applies to BFCP too.
>>>
>>> I see no reason why IETF should work on a T.140 draft however - unless
>>> there are lots of people who want to do it (which I doubt).
>>
>> IIUC, WebRTC doesn't support T.140 (because it is not audio or video).
>> But it could support T.140 over data channel. So that is a motivation
>> for doing the work.
>>
>>          Thanks,
>>          Paul
>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Christer
>>>
>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
>>>
>>> From: Schwarz, Albrecht (Albrecht)
>>> <mailto:albrecht.schwarz@alcatel-lucent.com>
>>> Sent: ‎16/‎10/‎2015 12:43
>>> To: Christer Holmberg <mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>; Flemming
>>> Andreasen <mailto:fandreas@cisco.com>; mmusic@ietf.org
>>> <mailto:mmusic@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: RE: [MMUSIC] WG adoption of other WebRTC data channel usage
>>> drafts?; Re: New Version Notification for
>>> draft-ietf-mmusic-msrp-usage-data-channel-02.txt
>>>
>>>>  Now, in THIS specific case we are talking about MSRP, so maybe it
>>> makes sense to publish an RFC.
>>>
>>> This email thread is about T.140 and BFCP, not MSRP! The MSRP draft is
>>> already adopted by the WG.
>>>
>>> *From:*Christer Holmberg [mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com]
>>> *Sent:* Freitag, 16. Oktober 2015 09:26
>>> *To:* Flemming Andreasen; Schwarz, Albrecht (Albrecht); mmusic@ietf.org
>>> *Subject:* RE: [MMUSIC] WG adoption of other WebRTC data channel usage
>>> drafts?; Re: New Version Notification for
>>> draft-ietf-mmusic-msrp-usage-data-channel-02.txt
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Does a new data channel usage require an RFC???
>>>
>>> If someone wants to specify a data channel protocol X, they should be
>>> able to do so without having to gather interest in IETF.
>>>
>>> Now, in THIS specific case we are talking about MSRP, so maybe it makes
>>> sense to publish an RFC.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Christer
>>>
>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
>>>
>>>
>>> *From: *Flemming Andreasen <mailto:fandreas@cisco.com>
>>> *Sent: *‎16/‎10/‎2015 01:23
>>> *To: *Schwarz, Albrecht (Albrecht)
>>> <mailto:albrecht.schwarz@alcatel-lucent.com>; mmusic@ietf.org
>>> <mailto:mmusic@ietf.org>
>>> *Subject: *Re: [MMUSIC] WG adoption of other WebRTC data channel usage
>>> drafts?; Re: New Version Notification for
>>> draft-ietf-mmusic-msrp-usage-data-channel-02.txt
>>>
>>> Hi Albrecht
>>>
>>> In order for the WG to take on additional work and specific drafts, we
>>> generally require an expressed interest and support from the WG. We
>>> haven't seen a lot of that so far on these two drafts, so you may want
>>> to try and garner some additional interest and demonstrate that on the
>>> list and/or in the upcoming meeting (let us know if you would like
>>> agenda time to discuss these).
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> -- Flemming (as MMUSIC chair)
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10/6/15 3:47 AM, Schwarz, Albrecht (Albrecht) wrote:
>>>> Dear All,
>>>>
>>>> like too remind that there are three first WebRTC data channel 
>>>> applications,
>>>> 1) MSRP based instant messaging,
>>>> 2) T.140 based text conversation and
>>>> 3) BFCP based floor control within a WebRTC conference service.
>>>>
>>>> draft-ietf-mmusic-msrp-usage-data-channel was/is the precedent for 
>>>> getting a common understanding about application protocol specific 
>>>> SDP usage (on top of the generic control of a DC).
>>>> The discussion and protocol design are fairly mature in the 
>>>> meanwhile, hence it is time to start the work on the two other 
>>>> applications.
>>>> We've prepared initial drafts, derived from the "MSRP draft", see:
>>>>
>>>> T.140 Text Conversation over Data Channels
>>>> draft-schwarz-mmusic-t140-usage-data-channel-02.txt
>>>>
>>>> BFCP floor control signalling over Data Channels
>>>> draft-schwarz-mmusic-bfcp-usage-data-channel-01.txt
>>>>
>>>> We'd like to request MMUSIC for adoption of these drafts.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Albrecht
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Re: [MMUSIC] New Version Notification for 
>>>> draft-ietf-mmusic-msrp-usage-data-channel-02.txt
>>>>
>>>> Juergen Stoetzer-Bradler <Juergen.Stoetzer-Bradler@alcatel-lucent.com
>>> <mailto:Juergen.Stoetzer-Bradler@alcatel-lucent.com>> Wed, 09 September
>>> 2015 14:45 UTCShow header
>>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> Version 02 of draft-ietf-mmusic-msrp-usage-data-channel addresses 
>>>> Christian's comments to version 01,
>>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/mmusic/current/msg14537.html,
>>>> except for the "setup" attribute related one.
>>>>
>>>> We'll come back regarding the SDP setup attribute, which can be 
>>>> part of an MSRP over data channel
>>>> related SDP media description as media level "a=setup" attribute 
>>>> and/or as MSRP sub-protocol specific
>>>> attribute "a=dcsa:x setup".
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Juergen
>>>>
>>>> On 09.09.2015 16:33,internet-drafts@ietf.org 
>>>> <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote:
>>>>> A new version of I-D, 
>>>>> draft-ietf-mmusic-msrp-usage-data-channel-02.txt
>>>>> has been successfully submitted by Juergen Stoetzer-Bradler and 
>>>>> posted to the
>>>>> IETF repository.
>>>>>
>>>>> Name: draft-ietf-mmusic-msrp-usage-data-channel
>>>>> Revision:    02
>>>>> Title:               MSRP over Data Channels
>>>>> Document date:       2015-09-09
>>>>> Group:               mmusic
>>>>> Pages:               15
>>>>> URL:https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-mmusic-msrp-usage-data-channel-02.txt 
>>>>>
>>>>> Status:https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mmusic-msrp-usage-data-channel/ 
>>>>>
>>>>> Htmlized:https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mmusic-msrp-usage-data-channel-02 
>>>>>
>>>>> Diff:https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-mmusic-msrp-usage-data-channel-02 
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Abstract:
>>>>>      This document specifies how the Message Session Relay 
>>>>> Protocol (MSRP)
>>>>>      can be instantiated as a data channel sub-protocol, using the 
>>>>> SDP
>>>>>      offer/answer exchange-based generic data channel negotiation
>>>>>      framework.  Two network configurations are documented: a 
>>>>> WebRTC end-
>>>>>      to-end configuration (connecting two MSRP over data channel
>>>>>      endpoints), and a gateway configuration (connecting an MSRP 
>>>>> over data
>>>>>      channel endpoint with an MSRP over TCP endpoint).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of 
>>>>> submission
>>>>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>>>>>
>>>>> The IETF Secretariat
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> mmusic mailing list
>>>> mmusic@ietf.org <mailto:mmusic@ietf.org>
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic
>>>> .
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
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