Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-channel-sdpneg
Christian Groves <Christian.Groves@nteczone.com> Mon, 15 February 2016 23:41 UTC
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From: Christian Groves <Christian.Groves@nteczone.com>
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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2016 10:41:35 +1100
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Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-channel-sdpneg
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Hello Juergen, Your proposal seems reasonable to me. With regards to the IANA registry for websockets I think it should be possible to add two references to the row for MSRP. It's only editing a table. Regards, Christian On 14/02/2016 9:48 PM, Juergen Stoetzer-Bradler wrote: > Flemming, > > Regarding >> It would probably simplify the overall SDP negotiation part, but I >> don't know if it would constrain the way data channels were >> envisioned to be used. > > On Friday Paul mentioned in his email two potential use cases, where > no subprotocol identifiers might be added to a data channel's dcmap > attribute. In my last email I hadn't thought of such cases. If we > don't want to exclude such cases, then requiring the subprotocol ids > always to be present might indeed be too restrictive. > > Regarding >> Ok. Going back to discussion between Paul and I, do you believe that >> in for an attribute to be encapsulated in dcsa, the attribute MUST >> have been explicitly define to support this (Paul's suggestion below) >> or do you believe that this is overly constraining, and if so, how >> shoud we relax it ? > > I now think that the sdpneg draft might recommend SDP offerers and > answerers to always add a subprotocol identifier to a data channel's > dcmap attribute if dcsa embedded attributes are also negotiated for > the data channel's subprotocol. I also think we could explicitly add > text to sdpneg saying that subprotocol identifiers should be added to > the IANA Websocket (and in future combined data channel) registry. And > that this registration should be done via a document, which then > explicitly describes the usages and semantics of dcsa embedded > subprotocol attributes, _if_ those usages or semantics deviate from > cases, where these attributes are not dcsa encapsulated. I think that > in those cases, where the usage and meaning of an attribute (always > related to the data channel's subprotocol) does not deviate from the > non-dcsa encapsulated use cases, such an attribute may not explicitly > need to be described for data channel usage. But I think it might be > helpful to explicitly say so in the sdpneg draft. > > Somebody inspecting an SDP offer or answer, which was generated by an > implementation following these two recommendations (and which hence > contains an IANA registered subprotocol id if it contains any dcsa > embedded attributes), could then refer to that IANA table, would then > find the reference to the document, which defines this subprotocol id > for data channel usage, and there could check if any of the dcsa > embedded attributes has a data channel specific semantic. If yes, that > specific semantic would be described in that document. If such a > specific semantic were not described in that document, then the > default usage and semantic of the attribute would apply also to that > data channel transport case. > > But in that context I'd have an IANA table related question. > A certain subprotocol might be defined for Websocket usage as well as > for data channel usage. MSRP is already such a case, where > draft-ietf-mmusic-msrp-usage-data-channel defines how to use MSRP over > data channels, and where draft-pd-dispatch-msrp-websocket defines how > to use MSRP over Websockets. > Would the IANA WebSocket Subprotocol Name Registry on > http://www.iana.org/assignments/websocket/websocket.xml then contain > two MSRP related rows? Or just one row containing references to both > the Websocket and data channel documents? > Should we add related text to the IANA registration section of the > sdpneg draft? > > Thanks, > Juergen > > > On 12.02.2016 15:52, EXT Flemming Andreasen wrote: >> >> >> On 2/12/16 5:45 AM, Juergen Stoetzer-Bradler wrote: >>> Flemming, Paul, >>> >>> The current a=dcmap related text in >>> draft-ietf-mmusic-data-channel-sdpneg doesn't require that the >>> 'subprotocol' parameter must always be present - rather it is >>> specified as an optional parameter. Thus, current sdpneg text would >>> allow to create an SDP offer for a data channel, which contains one >>> a=dcmap attribute and potentially multiple a=dcsa attributes without >>> the subprotocol actually being given. Based on this discussion I am >>> wondering if the subprotocol parameter should actually be mandatory. >>> >> It would probably simplify the overall SDP negotiation part, but I >> don't know if it would constrain the way data channels were >> envisioned to be used. >> >> >>> In the specific case of MSRP, the msrp-usage-data-channel draft says >>> in 5.1.1.1 that the dcmap attribute includes the label and >>> subprotocol parameters. The current text could possible be made more >>> explicit by saying that the 'subprotocol="MSRP"' parameter must >>> always be present. >>> Have just submitted version 04 of the msrp-usage-data-channel draft, >>> which proposes to add subprotocol identifier "MSRP" to the WebSocket >>> Subprotocol Name registry. This registry would then associate >>> subprotocol id "MSRP" with the msrp-usage-data-channel document. >>> There, in section 5.1.1.2 the MSRP specific usages of the a=dcsa >>> attribute are specified. And there the MSRP specific SDP attributes, >>> which can be dcsa embedded, are described. >>> 'setup' is an attribute, whose semantic changes when being dcsa >>> embedded and associated with subprotocol MSRP, as compared to the >>> meaning of an "a=setup" media level attribute of a TCP/MSRP m-line. >>> Hence these semantical differences are explicitly addressed in the >>> msrp-usage-data-channel draft. >>> >>> Regarding sdpneg, I also think that the current text in sdpneg seems >>> to be sufficient regarding the usage of dcsa encapsulated SDP >>> attributes as being bound to the data channel's subprotocol. But as >>> the semantic of a dcsa encapsulated attribute may be subprotocol >>> specific (like 'setup'), I'd now tend to consider the subprotocol >>> parameter in the dcmap attribute as being mandatory, as mentioned >>> above. As already discussed, the Websocket subprotocol registry >>> would then refer to the document, which specifies the subprotocol >>> specific usage of dcsa encapsulated parameters. >>> >> Ok. Going back to discussion between Paul and I, do you believe that >> in for an attribute to be encapsulated in dcsa, the attribute MUST >> have been explicitly define to support this (Paul's suggestion below) >> or do you believe that this is overly constraining, and if so, how >> shoud we relax it ? >> >> Thanks >> >> -- Flemming >> >> >>> Thanks, >>> Juergen >>> >>> >>> On 11.02.2016 21:52, Flemming Andreasen wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2/8/16 12:09 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote: >>>>> On 2/8/16 11:09 AM, Flemming Andreasen wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 2/6/16 1:44 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote: >>>>>>> On 2/4/16 10:43 PM, Christian Groves wrote: >>>>>>>> Isn't this the approach we're taking today? >>>>>>>> draft-ietf-mmusic-data-channel-sdpneg has general text and >>>>>>>> specific >>>>>>>> drafts are used to describe protocols that use the mechanism (i.e. >>>>>>>> draft-ietf-mmusic-msrp-usage-data-channel & >>>>>>>> draft-ietf-clue-datachannel). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It remains to be seen if that will be enough. E.g., there currently >>>>>>> aren't any iana considerations in >>>>>>> draft-ietf-mmusic-msrp-usage-data-channel. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Suppose I encounter some sdp that uses msrp over a data channel, >>>>>>> but >>>>>>> that usage is unknown to me. How do I find the spec (the >>>>>>> reference to >>>>>>> draft-ietf-mmusic-msrp-usage-data-channel) that defines that usage? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would like to think that the iana registries will allow me to >>>>>>> trace >>>>>>> back to the relevant specs. >>>>>>> >>>>>> No disagreement on that part, however having taken another look >>>>>> at both >>>>>> sdpneg and the msrp-usage documents, I still don't agree with your >>>>>> original request for all (existing and new) attributes to specify >>>>>> how >>>>>> they may or may not be used with the dcsa attribute defined by >>>>>> sdpneg. >>>>>> >>>>>> As Christian noted, the sub-protocol specifics are defined in >>>>>> individual >>>>>> documents (like msrp-usage), which calls your the parameters that >>>>>> are at >>>>>> least needed to be supported for that usage. Taking MSRP as an >>>>>> example, >>>>>> why isn't that enough, and how do you see the resulting set of >>>>>> attributes that may or may not be used with MSRP differ between >>>>>> use in a >>>>>> data-channel (and hence encapsulated in dcsa) or as a regular media >>>>>> stream ? >>>>> >>>>> Based on this discussion, I conclude that it should be sufficient >>>>> for this draft to say that before an attribute can be used with >>>>> dcsa, such usage must be defined somewhere. This could be either: >>>>> - as part of the definition of the attribute, OR >>>>> - as part of the definition of the protocol referenced on the m-line. >>>>> >>>> We are getting closer, but it's still not obvious to me that you >>>> cannot use an attribute with dcsa if it has not been explicitly >>>> defined for the attribute in question. Clearly, there are >>>> attributes that wouldn't make sense over data channels, just like >>>> there are attributes that don't make sense over particular media >>>> descriptions. >>>> >>>> Again, I'd like to hear from more people on this, including the >>>> authors. >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> >>>> -- Flemming >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Paul >>>>> >>>>>> Also, it would be good to hear from more people on this, >>>>>> including the >>>>>> document authors. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks >>>>>> >>>>>> -- Flemming >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> Paul >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regards, Christian >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 4/02/2016 3:58 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 2/3/16 5:42 PM, Flemming Andreasen wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm not concerned about the IANA part. I agree that *if* we >>>>>>>>>> need to >>>>>>>>>> expliclty specify attribute interactions for "dcsa", then it >>>>>>>>>> should be >>>>>>>>>> part of the IANA registry. What I am not agreeing with at this >>>>>>>>>> point is >>>>>>>>>> that there is indeed a need to explicitly speficy these >>>>>>>>>> interactions as >>>>>>>>>> opposed to relying on a more general algorithmic approach >>>>>>>>>> (plus the >>>>>>>>>> offerer being responsible for generating a valid offer if he >>>>>>>>>> wants to >>>>>>>>>> establish a data channel). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Well, an obvious one is that the protocol(s) the attribute >>>>>>>>> pertains to >>>>>>>>> need to be defined to work over data channels. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>> Paul >>>>>>>>> > > > _______________________________________________ > mmusic mailing list > mmusic@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic >
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Christian Groves
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-channel-… Bo Burman
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Christian Groves
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Juergen Stoetzer-Bradler
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Christian Groves
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Juergen Stoetzer-Bradler
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Christian Groves
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Juergen Stoetzer-Bradler
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Christian Groves
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Christian Groves
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Christian Groves
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Juergen Stoetzer-Bradler
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Juergen Stoetzer-Bradler
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Juergen Stoetzer-Bradler
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Christian Groves
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Juergen Stoetzer-Bradler
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Juergen Stoetzer-Bradler
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Juergen Stoetzer-Bradler
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Juergen Stoetzer-Bradler
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Juergen Stoetzer-Bradler
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Juergen Stoetzer-Bradler
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Christian Groves
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Christian Groves
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Juergen Stoetzer-Bradler
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Christian Groves
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Schwarz, Albrecht (Nokia - DE)
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Juergen Stoetzer-Bradler
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Christian Groves
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Juergen Stoetzer-Bradler
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Christian Groves
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Juergen Stoetzer-Bradler
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Christian Groves
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Juergen Stoetzer-Bradler
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] WGLC for draft-ietf-mmusic-data-chan… Paul Kyzivat