Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular nomination (was Re: [tram] Comment on draft-williams-peer-redirect-01: might it not converge?)
Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com> Wed, 30 July 2014 23:23 UTC
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From: Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2014 16:23:12 -0700
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To: Jonathan Lennox <jonathan@vidyo.com>
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Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular nomination (was Re: [tram] Comment on draft-williams-peer-redirect-01: might it not converge?)
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On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 3:20 PM, Jonathan Lennox <jonathan@vidyo.com> wrote: > > On Jul 30, 2014, at 5:59 PM, Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com> wrote: > > On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 2:14 PM, Jonathan Lennox <jonathan@vidyo.com> > wrote: > >> Thus the suggestion I’m making — do regular nomination, but allow media >> to be sent on any valid pair prior to selection. (Yes, re-reading 5245, I >> should have said “Valid” rather than “Confirmed”. I mis-remembered the >> terminology.) >> > > Understood. But controlled side needs some way to know what pair it > should use to send media, so we need some way to indicate this. Would this > be done via USE-CANDIDATE? If so, we could end up with multiple > USE-CANDIDATEs as we figure out the ideal path to use, which doesn't fit > exactly with regular nomination as defined in 5245, but otherwise seems > exactly like what I am proposing. Basically, controlled side uses the pair > that it most recently received USE-CANDIDATE on as its selected pair. > > > Oh, that’s true, it has to pick something. > > In the semantic I’m suggestion, I think it doesn’t *matter* what it > picks — it could choose any valid pair, just like the controlling agent > does, since it knows that’s a working round-trip path. > > For both sides, if you receive media on any candidate (from an IP and > port from which you’ve received a valid connectivity check), accept it. > USE-CANDIDATE is then just an optimization that lets you close down the > unselected candidates. > > I don’t think you want a rule of “most recently received USE-CANDIDATE” > to determine the selected pair. Checks will race each other, especially > when the paths’ RTTs are very different. > > In my model, there is only ever one USE-CANDIDATE sent per component — > i.e., it works like pure regular nomination, except for the “early media”. > OK, I get it now. I think the main issues you face are: 1) Inability to selectively free candidates - all candidates except the selected pair can be freed by the controlled side after USE-CANDIDATE. 2) No guarantee of symmetric RTP - remote side can use a different pair than local side - and you can't resolve this without USE-CANDIDATE (see #1). 3) Potential issues when media arrives on non-nominated pair. Given #3, I think I'd prefer to find a solution that also addresses #1/#2. > > 5245 says that an ICE endpoint MUST be prepared to receive media on >>> any candidate, but only sends on the Selected candidate pair. I don’t know >>> if this means, in practice, that ICE-bis could change to the behavior I’ve >>> described above and still be backward compatible, or if there’d need to be >>> some sort of ice-option negotiation to indicate that this early media (oh, >>> dread phrase) is acceptable. >>> >> >> Yes, I think we need a new ICE option, or else old ICE impls in the >> controlled role will be surprised when they think the selected pair is A >> but media arrives on B. We've already seen a number of implementations have >> issues with this. >> >> >> Do they have issues receiving media if there is no selected pair yet? >> This would be nonconformant with 5245, but nevertheless wouldn’t surprise >> me. >> > > Since the controlled side sends the ClientHello in the typical case, > this isn't usually a problem. The issue that is most often seen is that the > ServerHello comes from B instead of A and is ignored. > > > These are all in cases when the controlling endpoint is using aggressive > nomination, though, right? Do you have any data for regular nomination, > i.e. media received before any USE-CANDIDATE attribute? > Not at this time.
- [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular nomin… Jonathan Lennox
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Martin Thomson
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Justin Uberti
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Justin Uberti
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Jonathan Lennox
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Martin Thomson
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Justin Uberti
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Martin Thomson
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Justin Uberti
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Martin Thomson
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Jonathan Lennox
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Martin Thomson
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Jonathan Lennox
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Martin Thomson
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Justin Uberti
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Justin Uberti
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Justin Uberti
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Justin Uberti
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Martin Thomson
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Martin Thomson
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Justin Uberti
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Martin Thomson
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Justin Uberti
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Martin Thomson
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Justin Uberti
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… José Luis Millán
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Martin Thomson
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Kevin Dempsey
- Re: [MMUSIC] Merging ICE aggressive and regular n… Iñaki Baz Castillo