Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-data-channel
Gunnar Hellström <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se> Wed, 21 August 2019 20:47 UTC
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To: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, Bernard Aboba <bernard.aboba@gmail.com>
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From: Gunnar Hellström <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>
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Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 22:47:18 +0200
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Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-data-channel
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Thanks Christer for bringing the t140-usage to life again. Some comments below: Den 2019-08-17 kl. 08:09, skrev Christer Holmberg: > > Hi Bernard, > > Thank You for the information! > > Does that mean you think we should adopt the draft? :) > > Regards, > > Christer > > *Lähettäjä:*Bernard Aboba <bernard.aboba@gmail.com> > *Lähetetty:* lauantai 17. elokuuta 2019 2.02 > *Vastaanottaja:* Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> > *Kopio:* mmusic@ietf.org > *Aihe:* Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: > draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-data-channel > > You may be interested to know that > draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-data-channel appears relevant to "RTC > Accessibility Use Cases" recently developed by the W3C APA WG: > > https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Accessible_RTC_Use_Cases > Bernard, I noticed a mistake in that specification. A note close to the end says: "*NOTE:*People familiar with Unix, and now Linux command line interfaces will understand the distinction described here as that between the two applications "write" and "talk." The former functions like RTT specifies. The latter functions like a classic IRC session. Both need to be supported by WebRTC user agents." It seems to me that "write" and "talk" in the end of the first sentence are interchanged. The order should be "talk" and "write" to match the description in the second sentence. How can this be brought to the awareness of the editor of that document? > On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 10:42 AM Christer Holmberg > <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com > <mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>> wrote: > > Hi, > > Once upon a time in MMUSIC, there was work on a draft named > draft-schwarz-mmusic-t140-usage-data-channel. > > Then, the authors stopped working on it, and nobody has been > willing to take over. > > The draft is a 3GPP dependency, so there is a need to get it > finalized. > > Some time ago I decided to take a close look at the draft, so see > how much work it would take to finalize. One thing led ted to > another, and I ended up re-writing the draft. Say hello to > draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-data channel: > > https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-data-channel-00.txt > > The holmberg draft is based on the schwarz draft (also mentioned > in the Acknowledgements), and much of the content is still the > same. However, I have done editorial changes, and some > re-structuring in order to better separate between the SDP > considerations and the T.140 considerations. > > The NEW technical stuff is describing how the T.140 abstract > service functions map to T.140 data channels established with SDP O/A. > > I have removed much of the Gateway text, because that's where most > of the open issues were. That way, I also got rid of the > dependency on draft-ietf-rtcweb-gateways, a draft I doubt is ever > going to get finalized. If needed, gateway functions can be > specified elsewhere, and 3GPP has already defined the H.248 parts > for interworking between T.140 data channel and RFC 4103. > > There are currently no open issues in the draft. > A couple of comments: 1) In 3.2, the attribute "cps" is misspelled "cpc" once. 2) Section 5 has some historical references to real-time text transports that may not be of much interest anymore and instead confuse the reader, while some other more relevant transports may be added. I would also like to discuss if it could be possible to have a few general recommendations on the webrtc to sip/rfc4103 case without the problems you see with having a detailed gateway section. 3) Reliability. Section 3.1 implies that the channel is used in the reliable and ordered mode. We have been discussing back and forth if that is the right choice for real-time text. I tend to think it is, but it might be useful to discuss it once again. The traditional user requirement on real-time text is that produced characters shall be presented to the receiver within one second from their creation. Modern usage in speech-to-text applications may require more rapid transmission. As I understand it, the reliable mode of the data channel may imply long periods of choked transmission in case of network problems or by influence of heavy transmission in another channel. As long as this happens only in case of network problems, I now tend to think that that might be acceptable. The effects of being forced to use an unreliable channel are so far-going so I would like to avoid that. However, the word "reliable" is misleading. A "reliable" channel is not really reliable. It can break in case of problems. I think some recommendations should be inserted in section 4 about what to do when a channel breaks. The natural action would be for both sides to try to figure out what was the last T.140 data that was transmitted and received, and then try to reconnect and resume transmission if successful. If any T.140 data was lost during the break, that state should be marked by inserting the "missing data" T.140 indicator in the received stream. There needs of course also be a recommended action if it turns out to be impossible to reconnect after a low number of retries. Regards, Gunnar > > Regards, > > Christer > > _______________________________________________ > mmusic mailing list > mmusic@ietf.org <mailto:mmusic@ietf.org> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic > > > _______________________________________________ > mmusic mailing list > mmusic@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic -- ----------------------------------------- Gunnar Hellström Omnitor gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se +46 708 204 288
- [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-us… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Belling, Thomas (Nokia - DE/Munich)
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… R.Jesske
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-data-ch… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Roni Even (A)
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Roni Even (A)
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Roni Even (A)
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Roni Even (A)
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Paul Kyzivat